30.9.2004 I just figured out that I have to study for an exam that is early tomorrow morning.
Today I managed to get a nick of mine banned (per request by me) by Anthere just to get the feel and functionality there is left after a IP block.
There seems to be a hot discussion of a recent china block on Wikipedia on Wikipedia-l lately,
- No doubt the government of China considers Wikipedia to be trolling it - saying things that (to the government of China) could not possibly be acceptable or valid. The way China responds to that is no different than the way Wikimedia responds to true critique of itself, so, they deserve each other. Wikipedia violates GFDL - sadly that obvious and provable fact is censored here by Wikimedia lovers - so there is no moral reason for China not to block it. It's just Jimbo Wales's friends and their personal systemic bias - nothing the government of China has any obligation to respect. Trolls should write to the Chinese government and explain exactly how Wikimedia corruption has damaged the GFDL Corpus. Maybe China will block it for good and criticize the sysop power structure in a major press release. That would be actually quite amusing!
I'm out celebrating that my big sister gave birth to a healthy baby girl yesterday at 14:30 UTC+2, so now i'm uncle two times :)
I've been really tired all day for some reason so I'm not getting any real work done today. Also still my iBook is in maintenance so I don't have access to the Internet all the time, only when our school computer labs are open.
I'm planning on taking a trip to London for the European Social Forum 2004 on 15-17 October. If my plans materialize it'd be very nice to have a Consumerium meet-up if any other of our contributors are coming there
Finally managed to by-pass our schools firewall and now my mail is rerouted and I have access to IRC which is very useful for sanity checking proposed plans with MediaWiki gurus.
Back in .fi but very much hampered by not having my laptop (in maintenance now) and thus no access to freenode. If anyone knows of a web interface to access freenode pls. drop a link here
Succesfully sailed the boat from Hanko, Finland to Haapsalu Estonia with my dad, which is where I'm at now. Not having my laptop all the time has given me some time to think without being able to act (edit) immediatelly, which has it's upsides for some open questions have become clear in my mind.
Sorry. I said you could contact me via "email this user" but only now remembered to correct my email in prefs. sorry about that.
Ok. That was tedious. It took me over 2 hrs to counter what 142.177.X.X did/claimed in something over 40 minutes
- Trolls finally answered to all contested claims that are bogusly labelled false or unsubstantiated - both have clear evidence in their favour, and though there have been attempts to answer or clear up some of these, these are far from timely or satisfactory. There remain many more alleged Wikimedia corruption issues than attempted resolutions. The words of Mr. Wales in Talk:alleged Wikimedia corruption prove his libel chill attempt and his intent to censor anyone who publicly disagrees with him by name beyond a doubt. So far all that you have done on this is to prove the trolls correct or at least very very right to be concerned. So we thank Lowest Troll for that but ask that this page be renamed since it is named from Sysop Vandal point of view and should be from New Troll point of view like the rest of the Develop Wiki. There is an entire Meta-Wikipedia and half of Wikipedia devoted to lies about trolls, every w:Votes for deletion argument that mentions trolls includes lies about them, so there is no need for more room for lies here.
Survived sailing. A little bit fluish and very very tired. I just took the 6:30 am train from Helsinki to Tampere to make it to the French class and I haven't slept shit practically.
Also other very very bad news. My iBook is breaking/broken/unuasable and I have to get it to maintenance asap. There are though lots of vacant computers at our school but I'm so used to typing lecture notes into a localhost-wiki that I really can't do without.
I can't for some strange reason connect via ssh to our server so I cannot for now change my qmail routing to some webmail I can read. If you must contact me my click the "send email to user" link on user page. I'll try to ssh or call someone to change my routing so I can read my usual juxho aatt consumerium dto org email soon.
11.9.2004. Now I'm finally gone sailing
First things first. Juxo is gone sailing. Please be mellow if you must troll while I'm at sea.
It is clear that claiming corruption is not a function of this wiki unless it is such (dis)information that it is useful to have around to avoid mistakes others may have made while building similar projects. Now I have to go, but I will carry on later to move things to appropriate places and remove any false information from articles which state it as (true) information
- You are a liar, and you are part of this Wikimedia corruption that leads to deliberate censoring of information on things like a w:Genuine Progress Indicator. You have effectively destroyed this project by reacting to these Wikimedia lies, and you can expect no further help from any real trolls. When Consumerium Governance Organization is formed it will be formally accused of the same corruption that it covers up on behalf of its friends at Wikimedia, and you can expect no further contact or help now.
- What we do from this point, we do to prevent Wikimedia covering up on itself, and to prevent you from claiming that you actually represent the consensus view of all factions and participants in Consumerium:Itself. Unless someone does this, the whole project collapses into yet another corporate shill.
- Review Consumerium Governance Organization elections and role of the Chief Editor and ask whether or not you should be knuckling under to Bomis and Wikimedia or whether you must have the guts to tell them to get lost, in order to proceed in a position of responsibility in this project.
- Are you actually tough enough to DO this job, Juxo? do you really think Monsanto or McDonald's or Exxon is going to be EASIER to deal with than Bomis/Wikimedia? tough it out and prove that you CAN
Also the amount of bullshitting about irrelevant issues is getting to me slowly.
- The most relevant issue is the credibility of articles imported via w:. If you want discussion of Wikipedia to tail off, redirect w: to Wikinfo. <-- if you were ever looking for an offer of a truce, there it is.
The ultimate meaning of this wiki is to plan the operation of the production wikis" not useless biased rethoric and claims about non-consumerium issues that really hurt our ability to get the real work done (ie. Consumerium:Intermediate pages, forming an CGO and establishing what is the Consumerium Process and Guidelines and Rules for the wikis to come.
- By not actually acting in accord even with such reasonable guidelines as Consumerium:Proposed deletions, you have ended all reasonable coopeartion. There is no "our", you are just imposing a command hierarchy that must fail.
I plead to all parties that we leave the unnecessary/damaging throwing of accustations and focus on getting the very practical issues worked out so that we can move on the next stage ie. Research Wiki pilot --Juxo 18:59, 9 Sep 2004 (EEST)
- That is entirely up to you. Trolls are done with you. Implement a means of actually choosing the best editor for the Develop Wiki and for the Research Wiki, via a Consumerium Governance Organization, and we will help you move towards that. But we are no longer submitting to your very poor editorial judgement.
Today I've been mostly organizing my study notes and editing wikipedia, mainly adding categories toa business and economics articles.
Last weekend I got my move to Tampere mostly finalized though most of the stuff is now around my room in boxes and bags and I have to sort them out and find a place for all stuff. I should be getting ADSL access in one to two weeks time which will help me contribute more
Yesterday I had a meetup with Linkola who is working on his doctorate in http://www.uiah.fi . I'm half way reading through his masters thesis and will write a brief summary of it here. It contains lots of interesting research information about consumer wishes, hopes, fears and practical information about how consumers use the information about products supplied to them currently.
- It's very easy to study what they look at. It's very hard to study how it affects them. Focus on price premium perhaps as the indicator that can be made objective? That is, someone buys the green light product even though it costs 10 Eurocents more than the red light - but if it costs 15 they do not buy either, or, they actually buy the red light product. That's the kind of data you need to determine what the actual willingness of people to pay more to satisfy individual buying criteria is.
He renewed his commitment to become one of the founding members of Consumerium Association of Finland. He was most interested in getting a pilot project hastily off the ground and to get to analysing how and what information consumers use for making decicions, so I'm betting that he would be very interested in link transit data which has been a hot potato around here for quite some while now.
- Yes, clearly it's of even more use to Consumerium Services or other serious wiki missions than to those bogus pseudo-encyclopedists who don't even understand why it's important, or pretend not to (more likely unless they are stupid).
- If it's so obvious why link transit data is valuable, then why haven't any of the users requested it? Just answer my question on Talk:Link transit. If you're so arrogant that you refuse to my question on the grounds that I am "too stupid", why should you expect me to do this work for you? -- Tim Starling 08:49, 8 Sep 2004 (EEST)
- What's obvious to people with actual experience managing a corpus is not the same as what's obvious to the gibbering drooling hordes that consider Wikipedia to be more credible than the w:National Enquirer. Why didn't "the users" demand retaining the number of page views, too? How is anyone supposed to answer that? You told them that server load was the problem, that you couldn't do anything "because of server load", there were dozens of such requests turned down for this reason. Perhaps you're all such bollocks as programmers that you can't figure out how to do it effeciently? But you certainly did your job squashing the user requirements pipeline flat: don't blame the trolls if you don't get accurate information from it now.
- And, no one ever said they expected anyone, least of all you "to do this work for" anyone. It's important to editors to have some idea of how often their work is read, so they know where to focus editorial effort. It's not surprising that Wikipedia didn't think of this since it values volunteer time at zero, generally, and doesn't care how much volunteer time gets wasted dealing with say sysop vandalism and the like.
He also expressed his view that we should start with a limited group of users, but I countered that with the fact that we have for a long time been planning for a system that is accessible to everyone without any limitations of scope as to users.
- It is obviously better to have wide-open editorial policy that is troll-friendly and immune to propaganda or takeover by any one faction - else who would trust the data? This is just typical academic belief on his part, that somehow cliques can be made trustworthy. It's fairly obvious that without the wide-open policy, none of the design work would have gotten done.
- So far even the Sysop Vandal point of view expressed strongly by some sysops pretending to be trolls has not had any significant effect. Anyone coming to the front page and clicking around would probably never see any of the nonsense they've been writing, so, troll-friendly policy proves itself once again. Eventually they'll tire and realize they are harassing people who do serious work, interrupting us with their trivial concerns and bogus claims.
I understand that having one single group (ie. the members of some association with interest in these things we are to be dealing with) would make for better research material for his doctorate if he decides to include Consumerium in some way in his post-graduate studies. The discussion we had was intense and I found it very pleasing to actually get to talk about these things face-to-face and not via wiki.
- It would be useful to support a doctoral study on moral purchasing but we really need a Research Wiki to actually start to compile intermediate pages on all the things we care about. We are long past due to do that, and other projects are passing us. We can't rely on CorpKnowPedia and Consumerpedia and Wikipedia and Disinfopedia to track these things, though, we might from time to time rely on information from all of them. Wikinfo might be useful to track sympathetic point of view of various movements like no old growth or dolphin free, but, not to track corps, since the Coca-Cola article there must be sympathetic to Coca-Cola! So we have a niche to fill that has not been filled. Perhaps work with Indymedia on this, as they expose corporate misbehaviour a lot?
Here's an interesting piece of code developed by Magnus Manske some while ago. It's not used on Wikipedia but could be very useful for the Consumerium Process. It allows users to flag some article as validated on a number of issues ie. style, legal, completeness, facts, suitability for "final" release (Publish Wiki in our case)
Thanks to User:TimStarling for pointing out this code. I queried him about Magnuses' code for custom meta-tags such as "no index" (or whatever it's called) because if we could easily and reliably control what gets indexed by search engines and what not we could do with a unified Research Wiki and Publish Wiki where articles flagged indexable would be considered "published" and those with "no index" to be still in research stage. Just a thought. Apparently Magnuses' code does not include tags for robots but according to Tim this would not be difficult to implement. The main problem being that once an article is indexed and then some seedy characters add questionable content how does one get Google etc. to stop indexing it. Apparently there is yet no way to remove pages from search engines on request.
I'm currently reading the master's thesis of Jouni Linkola, "Shopping Guide to The Future", which is available (in Finnish) at http://mlab.uiah.fi/5medialaunch/jlinkola_lopputyo.pdf there is also a visualization of some main aspects of it at http://personal.inet.fi/surf/graphic/future.html (in Finnish again). The visualization is quite similar to the original Motivation of Consumerium:Itself. I'm looking forward to meeting up with Jouni to discuss the synergies between his post-graduate studies apparently also focusing on information services for consumers to be more informed and empowered.
Also check out the cool Consumeter shopping bag at http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~antello/designfiction/pictures.htm Watch the associated videos as well if you have broadband.
- design fiction is a Good Thing, that's what visions and best cases are about ultimately; and free circulation of fiction is better still.