This is the ting of the trolls. If you speak here the trolls will hear you.
The sequence ot this page is reverse to the common habbit in wiki. Write new text right under the bar please:
Speak up to the trolls
"then again a newbie arrives or a conflict emerges and all the dragging around about the correct position of the carrot starts again. Fataly there is a superordinate power in this mechanism which is superior to the work on the actual content. All keep an eye on the nose-carrot distance and compare it permanently to their own ideal conception." - MindTheGap.
- "Superordinate power"? The medium is the message. "Correct position of the carrot"? From whose perspective? Newbies and conflict? See New Troll point of view. Either you optimize to favour newbies in conflict with old trolls, and grow, or you favour those who simply got there first, and watch the whole thing wither and die.
I shall think and read about your reasons, thanks for the response. Gimme a bit o' time please, gnaw on, but MindTheGap.
'Have no pics here, eh? How come? -- MattisManzel 23:54, 3 Jul 2004 (EEST)
Trolls don't remember agreeing to actually respond to hearsay, rumours, nonsense here. But we will anyway just to be arbitrary (being trolls). Don't expect us to be polite, we are still trolls.
Only sysops "can support, strenghten and become part of a healthy and peacefull global HiveMind." Trolls prefer the present squabbling nasty biodiversity of the world tree with all its conflict and delights. We will gnaw on this "HiveMind" or "virtual community" until it bleeds to death. We will not join it. Let the sysops kill themselves trying to find and then enforce God's Eye View. Feh. Trolls know this view is not available to mere living creatures. Trolls seek only to make these no body entities less destructive to what is alive. Which includes, of course, we the trolls.
Heya trolls, you wrote on CW:
"Accordingly, trolls will be the actual community, and the sysops merely the cops." I agree, "somehow". It's a bit surprising actually. The "somehow" is important. It means figuring out a.) who/what a troll is, b.) who/what a sysop is. About a.) you have been thinking about that here, I haven't had the time to read that yet, but I'll try to. I just started to realize what a troll is (and it takes long for me to read as it's in english). B.) A sysop. System operator. Not too much of a good term, as mostly too wide and not precise I think. You mean people, I guess to the very majority they are syspops or admins, who haven't understood wiki. This is very generaly spoken and in no way precise. I has to be thought about how a person with administrative rights - these will be ineviteable until wiki is completely decentralized - should act to in order to provide a sourrounding that can support, strenghten and become part of a healthy and peacefull global HiveMind.
Let's take it very cool. It will work out by far the best like that. -- MattisManzel 19:00, 3 Jul 2004 (EEST)
You bore me, as you are not funny and as you aren't but repeating the same stuff over and over. You are not open, your Zauber sucks. Sorry, but I'll return to work with people who know how to groove as, yes, I'm still -- MattisManzel 09:10, 5 Jul 2004 (EEST) (Why don't you just give it a try with mini-golf instead?)
See how your things get deleted on CW? Sad, but I can do nothing about that. You have no face and no mouth, that's the only problem. It is your way that makes it impossible for anyone to hear you. We wanna jam. We're best when we jam. But we can't jam with you. You could right now in this very moment make a real nage page on CW, even put a real pic of you on it if you feel like, say "Hello, I'm the troll from before, but anyhow. I do a little this and that." and it all would be completetly different. People'd say: "Hi RealName, you really got on our nerves, Welcome on CW. But you won't. You are too soaked with your sadness, you are too weak and you are too ineffective. I'm sorry about it.
- I'm a different troll and I don't know what you are talking about. But sure you want to prescribe how people should cooperate with your system. Other communities only ask for a name, you ask for an image. Other communities only ask for polite cooperation, you ask for Zauber and a jam-like resonance. Accept that our cooperation is not-cooperation and a necessary mirror to your rediculous expectations of behaviour.
- I'm a different troll too and you are right to reject this demand for you to expose your bodily identity. It is enough to know you are some body and not no body. Give them nothing, and continue to proclaim troll pride. Well put: "our cooperation is not-cooperation and a necessary mirror to your ridiculous expectations of behaviour." We, trolls, will not enter their iron cage of "productivity", nor will we create a consumer-friendly image. We remain trolls! And gnaw at the roots of the world tree they destroy with their golf pesticides.
Well I overread the "ridiculous" (ridere, to laugh in italian, your english is very good, better than mine, but you're neither a native speaker, TrollyDear, are you?), I accept the rest. Yes, I have an idea about what works and what not. I have an idea how to shape this world to make it work better.
- All sysops have such ideas. All sysops are wrong. See God's Eye View.
- all sysops have eyes. all sysops are wrong. like the sysops all trolls have eyes. so all trolls are wrong.
I have an idea about the world-tree.
- Ideas are bad. Ideas destroy. Ideas about the world tree lead to its being poisoned. One must have only reverence for the world tree and compassion for all its creatures. Including even the most despised of those creatures: trolls. One of your ideas is to cut the world tree down to make room for more golf.
And I try to behave in a way, and I look out if it is effective and I think about how could I change it to make it become more effective. I do it openly so that people can see it, and I hope that people think: "Hey, this works - I'll try it that way too." But I do not prescribe anything to anybody, all I give is an example and recommendations. Nobody has to follow these. Nobody has to, everybody can - that's wiki. Tell me when you find things I wrote where this does not apply, this is most important for me to know. A pic and Zauber is the least to ask for when into effective wikiwork (the latter counts - the pic is helpful). "Butter bei die Fische!", as we say in German. Or do you want this to take for ever and a day?
- You do not get it, do you? "Effective wikiwork" begins with the overthrow of the sysop power structure in favour of the New Troll point of view - it is only once new trolls are in charge, that wiki ideology can be destroyed and the mandate pursued. NEW trolls, those HONESTLY ATTRACTED BY THE wiki mission. Not the old trolls that started the wiki, because they NEUROTICALLY THOUGHT THEY WERE THE BEST PEOPLE TO CONTROL the wiki mission. By definition the new trolls are sincere, while the old trolls simply seek to retain power.
PS. I do not really favor the harsh tone between us, it's ok for the beginning though. Fist jams usually go like that. Part of my aggression (the socalled evil) btw is due to my insufficient and slooow reading english. Sorry for that, we'll get it done I guess. I like your precise language, I like very much how nordic mystic is woven in here. -- MattisManzel 15:54, 5 Jul 2004 (EEST)
- Liking it is not enough. You must live it. Abandon your username! Use any anonymous proxy that will render your identity nebulous! Become a troll!
If you become a troll first, alright. -- MattisManzel 23:10, 5 Jul 2004 (EEST)
- True trolls are made by troll-formative injustice and maintained by anti-troll bias.
- Hey, why 2 u want 2 force Madthis into using old-fashioned trolling strategies? Any troll is free 2 use the ways he likes! Who are u 2 prescribe other trolls their behaviour? Isn't he a newer troll than u?
- He has not yet admitted that he is a troll! That is quite important. When he does, he may lead us, and perhaps in time even become Lowest Troll!
- When had a troll evR 2 admit 2 be a troll? When did a troll? It was always a label attached 2 us 2 hurt us. Now we may be proud of the label but does this mean we have 2 admit something? I don't admit nothing. ** T2R
Well, it's quite simple. You just cut a hole in your stomach like I did and you can eat as much gryt as you want to. Give it a try. -- MattisManzel 19:45, 6 Jul 2004 (EEST)
There are postings called "spam" pretty all over in wikilandia. I tried to interlink some wikispam discussions and proposed a SpamBox/WikiSpamBusters solution. I'd be interested to hear what you think of it. http://wiki.s23.org/wiki.pl?WikiSpam. More generally your view on spam in the wiki process interests me. -- MattisManzel 20:54, 15 Jul 2004 (EEST)
- So-called "spam" is a symptom of having no clear process to deal with the funded troll. Most wiki spam is actually subtle and consists of inappropriate references to commercial products or services including raising questions or issues about them that put one type of service in a competitive advantage to another.
- side note - Obviously Consumerium buying signal is doing this honestly and openly. But much Wikimedia corruption consists of an over-tolerance for specific corporate interests, e.g. Bomis, that advance their own interests over the GFDL corpus as a whole by sponsoring sysop vandalism.
- Tolerating unlimited [funded troll]]s is to permit the systemic bias of "whoever has money to pay them" into the community point of view. But to react by censoring them has of course the opposite effect to that intended: if I wish to promote Coca-Cola then I simply insert spam for Pepsi and the reactive stupidity of the sysop power structure will end up favouring my actual sponsor. So the right reaction is one process that doesn't care who is funded and who is not, and simply determines that:
- "Hey, you are not representative of the New Troll point of view, the statistical evidence and sequence of events is such that the balance of probabilities favours the theory of you being paid to be here, not having shown up due to some natural or normal expansion of our user base to include such as yourself." Is this easy to figure out? No. But given a faction system is possible. If in a given month you get 20 new "Reds" and 10 new "Blues", you might observe that one blue defends commercial products very specifically, two reds attack them. So if in one month four of the ten Blues are strongly promoting commercial products but only two of the Reds are strongly defaming them, this is a big shift, and there are tests you can apply to determine if this skew is the result of some deliberate attempt to influence or alter the neutral point of view.
- But to get to that, you must acknowledge that there is a New Troll point of view and that changes in the flow of attention into the wiki must change.
- In this model, "spam" is simply statistically infrequent linkage or approval of some commercial product, perhaps as quantified by a URI.
- There are other useful tests like "is the URI linked to, presently for sale?" If so then it's likely someone trying to boost up the page views.