Consumerium social club: Difference between revisions
various wrong assertions corrected (thread form), physical/political analogy expanded, stupidity identified, consequences considered
No edit summary |
(various wrong assertions corrected (thread form), physical/political analogy expanded, stupidity identified, consequences considered) |
||
| Line 9: | Line 9: | ||
<i>This is also the exact behavoir of most meetings in the real world, there are just different socially accepted forms of enforcement. | <i>This is also the exact behavoir of most meetings in the real world, there are just different socially accepted forms of enforcement. | ||
::And ''very'' different limits and criteria for gaining and losing that power. An [[unequal power relationship]] is very dangerous. And typically you do not have several dozen people in a room of several hundred, all of whom are sufficiently bold, armed, and technologically enabled enough to remove dozens of others instantly on a whim, the way that you can in an online forum. So the level of unequal power is VERY DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT, which makes it not "the exact behavior". The kind of fascism that happens online couldn't happen in the real world, which is the point of the example: not just because it would not be tolerated in a meeting where the fate of the person involved, or anyone, was being decided, but because very few would volunteer to do it. SOME meetings in the real world are like this, like a courtroom where a judge might toss someone for contempt of court, and armed bailiffs might support that, but, still, there would not be dozens of masked bailiffs in the room who are never fired for anything they do, and judges who don't really pay much attention... so NO, "most meetings in the real world" do NOT work that way. And who it is "socially accepted" by, is those who remain in the room after the ejection: who may be intimidated against objecting, after seeing what just happened. | |||
<i>The reason the above analogy is not applicable to an online forum such as a wiki is that there is no physical room online, you can't see the people involved, and you have no direct means of communicating with them either.</i> | |||
::All of which makes them more vulnerable in some ways (easy to dispose of the bodies, since the bodies are elsewhere) and less vulnerable in others (potential for anonymity). Once there is [[outing]], everyone is actually more vulnerable, as the sysops will cooperate to keep themselves from being outed, but the users have no such ability to shut anyone up or keep information hidden. | |||
If | ::It is wrong to say "the above analogy is not applicable" if what is being discussed in the room has a serious impact on bodies, that is, the output of the meeting will affect someone's life or health or ability to protect either. If the meeting is like a "town hall" then that's exactly what's being decided - the analogy is not about ordinary meetings of private groups or corporations, it is about public purposes and claims of openness to public input. So there may not be "physical room" online, but there are real bodily and physical types of impacts, and those must be considered, even if they are not quite visible... likewise if you are deciding something that will affect the fate of children, you don't necessarily have to allow children in the room or let them speak, but you have to have some rational way of representing their interests or dangers. | ||
This is not to say the current sysop system is not without it's flaws, it simply remains to develop a better system.</i> | <i>In the real world, any group of two or three people have the power to physically throw someone out of a building, as a result, people are generally more civil, and more apt to follow the established rules. People can directly comminicate, fight, argue, and be asked to leave.</i> | ||
::Quite true: "Democracy is two guys dragging a third kicking and screaming to the gas chamber." However, the "group of two or three people" first of all MUST COOPERATE, as no one of them could do it alone, and ARE TAKING A RISK, as they could get hurt or sued or something if they are doing it for self-interest and not as a fair interpretation of what everyone concerned (not everyone in the room but all stakeholders) want or need done. And you're right that these requirements for cooperation and consideration of civility do result in some more elaborate procedures. None of which seem to exist in any online forum - maybe they're too new to have formal [[dispute resolution]] via [[faction]]s... | |||
::To "be asked to leave" happens all the time. And ignoring it happens all the time. For instance if Consumerium were publishing false information about some product, and violating its own license, and someone pointing that out were asked to leave, a good stakeholder who cared about Consumerium would not want them to OBEY, but FIGHT. So enabling that dissent really is what matters, and it's a prime reason to (a) have an independent board not involved in the daily decisions (b) have a [[Consumerium Governance Organization]] that follows some [[due process]], not an [[echo chamber]] and (c) require two or three sysops to agree on something that excludes someone, and make it relatively easy to undo (d) not let anyone have any post for as long as they want (e) allow those who object to bad processes to have a way to run for the job of fixing them all. | |||
<i>Online it is a much more metaphysical experience, we are all imagining a place, this wiki, and we can push information into it with the power of our thought assisted by some technology. People are more apt to be disagreeable and rude because it is easier to do so and there is less consequence.</i> | |||
::That's ONE reason "because". Trolls would say: people are PERCEIVED AS disagreeable and rude because they are working in an inherently less rich medium, and, one where power struggles and [[power structure]] are slanted so heavily against them that they have to make a LOT of noise just to be heard. And what is "information"? It's someone's map of how to make future decisions. Those maps differ, and tough and tragic choices must be made by any collective about how to reconcile them to achieve the groups' collective mission. To dismiss all this as mere "rudeness" is simply called stupidity. It might even be the definition of stupidity. | |||
::Anonymous trolls who were disagreeable with each other, and rude to King George III, eventually wrote a constitution and founded the United States - while fighting these trolls, the King and his sysops were of course at all times simply perceiving them as disagreeable, wrong, rude and evil. Were they? | |||
::Same story for any revolution. Nelson Mandela was a troll. Gandhi too. | |||
<i>If people behaved in the real world how trolls behave online, they would be gagged and thrown out.</i> | |||
::And those who did this gagging and throwing-out would be killed. Power is resisted, and new power forms to resist it: that too is part of revolutions. Eventually a power balance is reached and a new etiquette that makes sense. It is this potential for physically violent feedback that keeps authority honest. And some would say, ONLY that. | |||
::But on the face of it, this statement is also stupidity, as there is no way to "behave online". Behaving is physical, it is not about words. You would have to see body gestures and some indication of physical commitment to words to see "how trolls behave", and it is simply wrong to make the assertion you do. | |||
::There is no such thing as "online behaviour" for the same reason that there is no such thing as "virtual community" - it is thoughts meeting, or words, not bodies. | |||
<i>This is not to say the current sysop system is not without it's flaws, it simply remains to develop a better system.</i> | |||
::The solution to bad systems is not always "to develop a better system." That is the prejudice of a certain type of personality, to believe that. | |||
::Sometimes the answer is to simply realize that irreconcilable differences and incommensurable values clashes exist, and, make sure that any issue is heard out by genuinely uninterested parties without any agenda of their own to push, and no stake in any particular person being believed. But that too is "system". | |||
::Another answer is to destroy or continually resist "the system" and expect a constant tension to keep power balances in flux, so they at least change a bit once in a while, and there is room for creative maneuver between the factions. Neal Stephenson is a champion of this approach. He is probably right about it. | |||
See [[m:Internet Authority Disease]], [[m:power structure]] and [[m:Wikipedia sociology]] for more on this problem and how it plays out on [[Wikipedia]]. | See [[m:Internet Authority Disease]], [[m:power structure]] and [[m:Wikipedia sociology]] for more on this problem and how it plays out on [[Wikipedia]]. | ||