Talk:Worst cases - Revision history

142.177.10.33 at 03:11, 27 October 2003

2003-10-27T03:11:20Z

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	:::If you stick to that policy, any worst case that trolls think of, will appear somewhere else and be easily found on google as a Consumerium Exploit or some other obvious tag. You will not have write access so you will not be able to block their visibility to others. So your choice is not "hide or publish", your choices is "publish here or lose all control" over the presentation of such [[worst cases]]. You may take that as both a threat, and as a statement of inevitability. Trolls are trolls. Consider yourself to be bitten on the leg. We are not helping you create a [[monopoly]] you do not deserve (yet), nor are we wasting our time on a stupid and provably-wrong strategy. So, reconsider.		:::If you stick to that policy, any worst case that trolls think of, will appear somewhere else and be easily found on google as a Consumerium Exploit or some other obvious tag. You will not have write access so you will not be able to block their visibility to others. So your choice is not "hide or publish", your choices is "publish here or lose all control" over the presentation of such [[worst cases]]. You may take that as both a threat, and as a statement of inevitability. Trolls are trolls. Consider yourself to be bitten on the leg. We are not helping you create a [[monopoly]] you do not deserve (yet), nor are we wasting our time on a stupid and provably-wrong strategy. So, reconsider.

			------

			[[Threats]] has now been created, some of which may be [[worst cases]]. If you see a threat you actually believe in, or can construct a worst case that you really believe could happen out of what you see at threats, add that to these other worst cases.

			[[Stories]] will help too. They can be either based on [[worst cases]] or [[best cases]]. The best stories are those that show how a best case becomes a worst case by a small difference in the system's design or governance protocol. Like say the difference between [[Gus Kouwenhoven]] getting to grow his business, or his buddies deciding he's a liability, and wasting him, using him to feed the same loggers he is now feeding chimps (cannibalism either way).

142.177.97.79: wrong, you don't speak for who "we" are, or control what "we" do

2003-06-23T20:40:08Z

wrong, you don't speak for who "we" are, or control what "we" do

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:40, 23 June 2003
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	::Maybe, but we shouldn't be doing the work for them or whatever party is interested in blocking [[Delivery]] of [[Consumerium]] [[Features\|services]]. Rather if someone has thought of a [[worst cases]] scenario, [http://www.consumerium.org/Juxo.gpgkey encrypt] it and mail it to me. --[[User:Juxo\|Juxo]] 16:27 Jun 23, 2003 (EEST)		::Maybe, but we shouldn't be doing the work for them or whatever party is interested in blocking [[Delivery]] of [[Consumerium]] [[Features\|services]]. Rather if someone has thought of a [[worst cases]] scenario, [http://www.consumerium.org/Juxo.gpgkey encrypt] it and mail it to me. --[[User:Juxo\|Juxo]] 16:27 Jun 23, 2003 (EEST)

			:::If you stick to that policy, you doom the project. No insult to you, but you are simply not smart enough to understand all such cases, not wise enough to know which matter when, and require a lot of help to think of how to deal with them, and what policy to take. Especially on complex matters like protocols and licenses where lots of experience and input is required. This is exactly the argument against [[closed source]] for security products. Aside from all that, a high-overhead way to submit such cases, that only a few people have the tools to use, guarantees you will not see most cases people think of. Successful projects like Wikipedia have revealed and discussed many [[m:worst cases]] and show no sign of being wiped out yet.

			:::If you stick to that policy, any worst case that trolls think of, will appear somewhere else and be easily found on google as a Consumerium Exploit or some other obvious tag. You will not have write access so you will not be able to block their visibility to others. So your choice is not "hide or publish", your choices is "publish here or lose all control" over the presentation of such [[worst cases]]. You may take that as both a threat, and as a statement of inevitability. Trolls are trolls. Consider yourself to be bitten on the leg. We are not helping you create a [[monopoly]] you do not deserve (yet), nor are we wasting our time on a stupid and provably-wrong strategy. So, reconsider.

Jukeboksi: rather then writing here, please send me your worst case ideas

2003-06-23T16:27:52Z

rather then writing here, please send me your worst case ideas

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	:[http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Center_for_Consumer_Freedom Center for Consumer Freedom] is the kind of people we are up against. They are smart, and well-funded, and you better believe they do this kind of analysis.		:[http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Center_for_Consumer_Freedom Center for Consumer Freedom] is the kind of people we are up against. They are smart, and well-funded, and you better believe they do this kind of analysis.

			::Maybe, but we shouldn't be doing the work for them or whatever party is interested in blocking [[Delivery]] of [[Consumerium]] [[Features\|services]]. Rather if someone has thought of a [[worst cases]] scenario, [http://www.consumerium.org/Juxo.gpgkey encrypt] it and mail it to me. --[[User:Juxo\|Juxo]] 16:27 Jun 23, 2003 (EEST)

142.177.105.231: enemy group

2003-06-23T01:13:51Z

enemy group

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	:Well, there are two attitudes 1. assume that you are a genius who can figure out all this in advance without ever writing it down or working out weak points "security by obscurity" 2. assume that you need to brainstorm about the problems that can be visited on you in a competitive world, by those who seek to subvert, and, that you can best discourage them by working out a robust solution, wit good answers to all the [[threats]] and [[worst cases]] You have no non-public way to do this, and surely you would rather be notified of potential attacks or competitors this way than by having them suddenly appear, exploiting flaws in the [[licenses]] and [[audit]] process that you never thought of, or discussed? Same issue as computer security - you can be transparent or try to hide flaws in the hope that this hiding will make you obscure. But if it does, you aren't having any influence. So the winning strategy is probably the more open one.		:Well, there are two attitudes 1. assume that you are a genius who can figure out all this in advance without ever writing it down or working out weak points "security by obscurity" 2. assume that you need to brainstorm about the problems that can be visited on you in a competitive world, by those who seek to subvert, and, that you can best discourage them by working out a robust solution, wit good answers to all the [[threats]] and [[worst cases]] You have no non-public way to do this, and surely you would rather be notified of potential attacks or competitors this way than by having them suddenly appear, exploiting flaws in the [[licenses]] and [[audit]] process that you never thought of, or discussed? Same issue as computer security - you can be transparent or try to hide flaws in the hope that this hiding will make you obscure. But if it does, you aren't having any influence. So the winning strategy is probably the more open one.

			:[http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Center_for_Consumer_Freedom Center for Consumer Freedom] is the kind of people we are up against. They are smart, and well-funded, and you better believe they do this kind of analysis.

142.177.105.231: think of it as a security problem - transparent vs. obscure

2003-06-23T01:09:51Z

think of it as a security problem - transparent vs. obscure

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	I'm not sure at all if it's wise to '''publicly''' list the sensitive points which can be used to haul consumerium out of the way for a more [[w:productivism\|productionism orientated]] system with similar features, but lacking the observance of [[Features\|corporate social responsibility issues]].[[User:Juxo\|Juxo]] 17:25 Jun 22, 2003 (EEST)		I'm not sure at all if it's wise to '''publicly''' list the sensitive points which can be used to haul consumerium out of the way for a more [[w:productivism\|productionism orientated]] system with similar features, but lacking the observance of [[Features\|corporate social responsibility issues]].[[User:Juxo\|Juxo]] 17:25 Jun 22, 2003 (EEST)

			:Well, there are two attitudes 1. assume that you are a genius who can figure out all this in advance without ever writing it down or working out weak points "security by obscurity" 2. assume that you need to brainstorm about the problems that can be visited on you in a competitive world, by those who seek to subvert, and, that you can best discourage them by working out a robust solution, wit good answers to all the [[threats]] and [[worst cases]] You have no non-public way to do this, and surely you would rather be notified of potential attacks or competitors this way than by having them suddenly appear, exploiting flaws in the [[licenses]] and [[audit]] process that you never thought of, or discussed? Same issue as computer security - you can be transparent or try to hide flaws in the hope that this hiding will make you obscure. But if it does, you aren't having any influence. So the winning strategy is probably the more open one.

Jukeboksi: typo

2003-06-22T17:27:19Z

typo

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:27, 22 June 2003
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	I'm not sure at all if it's wise to '''publicly''' list the sensitive points which can be used to haul consumerium out of the way for a more [[w:productionism~~\|productionist~~ orientated]] system with similar features, but lacking the observance of [[Features\|corporate social responsibility issues]].[[User:Juxo\|Juxo]] 17:25 Jun 22, 2003 (EEST)		I'm not sure at all if it's wise to '''publicly''' list the sensitive points which can be used to haul consumerium out of the way for a more [[w:productivism\|productionism orientated]] system with similar features, but lacking the observance of [[Features\|corporate social responsibility issues]].[[User:Juxo\|Juxo]] 17:25 Jun 22, 2003 (EEST)

Jukeboksi: i don't think this article is more useful then harmful

2003-06-22T17:25:46Z

i don't think this article is more useful then harmful

New page

I'm not sure at all if it's wise to '''publicly''' list the sensitive points which can be used to haul consumerium out of the way for a more [[w:productionism|productionist orientated]] system with similar features, but lacking the observance of [[Features|corporate social responsibility issues]].[[User:Juxo|Juxo]] 17:25 Jun 22, 2003 (EEST)