Talk:CIUML - Revision history

Jukeboksi: once again scroll dowl scroll down scroll down scroll down... This time mostly to find a really frustrated UN employee ;)

2003-06-14T17:20:23Z

once again scroll dowl scroll down scroll down scroll down... This time mostly to find a really frustrated UN employee ;)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:20, 14 June 2003
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	::Money is deliberately designed to be hard to trace. It serves four functis, the combination of which makes it nearly impossible. But not all [[financial capital]] serves ALL FOUR functions, some of it serves only one or two of the, m and you can track its conversion into the other functions		::Money is deliberately designed to be hard to trace. It serves four functis, the combination of which makes it nearly impossible. But not all [[financial capital]] serves ALL FOUR functions, some of it serves only one or two of the, m and you can track its conversion into the other functions

			:::[http://unstats.un.org/unsd/sna1993/introduction.asp SNA 1993 (System of National Accounts)] is The United Nations Official Shot at Accounting amounts, whereabouts and movements of [[Financial capital]]. Designing this was propably not very fun.

			:::I've seen some XML-schema (on a not-up-dated-for-a-year-or-two-type of webpage) somewhere with rantings about implementing this one. It was like [[w:North-Korea]] meets [[w:SEC]] meets [[w:Stasi]] meets [[w:IRS]] meets [[w:RFID]] meets [[w:Fahrenheit 451]] meets [[w:Alien]] invaders who destroy all [[w:tax haven]]s and [[w:Swiss bank account]]s with their advanced death ray all done in inexplicably complicated XML

142.177.98.227 at 01:08, 14 June 2003

2003-06-14T01:08:27Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:08, 14 June 2003
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	#What does disposition mean? especially in the context of capital		#What does disposition mean? especially in the context of capital

			##It means how you use what you have, and how it grows or shrinks.

	#I don't see how [[w:capital(economics)]] can be expoited. Capital is [[invest]]ed not expoited and the idea is that when invested, capital produces [[Added value]] for the [[investor]].		#I don't see how [[w:capital(economics)]] can be expoited. Capital is [[invest]]ed not expoited and the idea is that when invested, capital produces [[Added value]] for the [[investor]].

	:In the process some people will propably get exploited in the sense of not getting a decent [[compensation]] for the [[work]] they've done compared to the [[added value]] they've produced to benefit the investor.		##That is the capitalist idea. That is not the [[green]] or [[troll]] idea. To these, the goal is more [[natural capital]] and more [[individual capital]] and everything else is not alive so exploit it to hell. Does that make sense? You owe the "investor" a better life, not necessarily a higher amount of cash. This works for both "for-profit" and "not-for-profit" paradigms. If you disagree, trolls will bite you on the leg. That is how they defend the green point of view, and the [[funny garden]].

			:In the process some people will propably get exploited in the sense of not getting a decent [[compensation]] for the [[work]] they've done compared to the [[added value]] they've produced to benefit the investor.

			::That is [[w:capitalism]], yes. Now, improve it by assuming that people are only exploited to make [[natural capital]] grow faster and better, and that is [http://natcap.org Natural Capitalism]. Now, improve it again by assuming that people's [[individual capital]] (unique talent) are not exploited but actually renewed, playfully, re-created by this re-recreation of [[natural capital]] (like, by [[w:gardening]] and such), and you have [[w:human development theory]] and the whole idea of [[w:capital (economics)]] in the modern sense. This is post-industrialism, which greens and trolls seek.

	:[[Globalization]] of the [[financing]] sector has led to a situation where investments tend to go to countries where the [[price]] of labor and [[tax]]ation are low, thus increasing the added value produced for the investor, which of course is exploitation in the Marxist sense.		:[[Globalization]] of the [[financing]] sector has led to a situation where investments tend to go to countries where the [[price]] of labor and [[tax]]ation are low, thus increasing the added value produced for the investor, which of course is exploitation in the Marxist sense.

	Anyway... If someone has an idea of how [[capital]] can be [[identified]] (this is a neccessary step to achieve the almost [[utopia]]n [[features\|feature]] of actually [[tracking capital]], please put it in [[Identifying capital]] and do bear in mind that there is always the [[grey economy]] ([[tax dodging]], [[pension dodging]], [[falsely claimed subsidies]]...) and the [[dark economy]] (straight out illegal activities like [[human ~~trafficing~~]], [[drug ~~trafficing~~]] [[illegal arms trade]], [[bribery]], [[money ~~laundring~~]] ...) which will slowly, but apparently inevitably (IMHO) make any [[accounting]] scheme more and more inconsistent with the reality of things.		::Yes, and it will get us all killed if we keep thinking this way, because it is degrading [[w:value of life]]. Sooner or later those with low life prices come to suicide-bomb thse with high life prices, and then we need the new ways above.

			Anyway... If someone has an idea of how [[capital]] can be [[identified]] (this is a neccessary step to achieve the almost [[utopia]]n [[features\|feature]] of actually [[tracking capital]], please put it in [[Identifying capital]] and do bear in mind that there is always the [[grey economy]] ([[tax dodging]], [[pension dodging]], [[falsely claimed subsidies]]...) and the [[dark economy]] (straight out illegal activities like [[human trafficking]], [[drug trafficking]], [[organ trafficking]], [[illegal arms trade]], [[bribery]], [[money laundering]] ...) which will slowly, but apparently inevitably (IMHO) make any [[accounting]] scheme more and more inconsistent with the reality of things.

			::It's quite hard to track [[financial capital]] and much easier to track [[natural capital]] (as [[ecoregion]]) and [[individual capital]] ([[identifying people]]), which opens up the issue of when it's valid to do this tracking - say to prevent [[asset stripping]]. See [[w:accounting reform]] for more on this.

	I'd really love it if we could tackle this "what is money, where does it go, who desides where it goes, what it does there and so forth..." swamp of questions. I don't believe we are going to achieve any concrete stuff in the field of [[tracing capital]] but it'd be a fun excercise.		I'd really love it if we could tackle this "what is money, where does it go, who desides where it goes, what it does there and so forth..." swamp of questions. I don't believe we are going to achieve any concrete stuff in the field of [[tracing capital]] but it'd be a fun excercise.

			::Money is deliberately designed to be hard to trace. It serves four functis, the combination of which makes it nearly impossible. But not all [[financial capital]] serves ALL FOUR functions, some of it serves only one or two of the, m and you can track its conversion into the other functions

Jukeboksi: on the question of knowledge about capital

2003-06-13T23:02:23Z

on the question of knowledge about capital

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accounting systems that reliably track disposition and exploitation of [[w:capital (economics)|capital]].

#What does disposition mean? especially in the context of capital
#I don't see how [[w:capital(economics)]] can be expoited. Capital is [[invest]]ed not expoited and the idea is that when invested, capital produces [[Added value]] for the [[investor]].

:In the process some people will propably get exploited in the sense of not getting a decent [[compensation]] for the [[work]] they've done compared to the [[added value]] they've produced to benefit the investor.

:[[Globalization]] of the [[financing]] sector has led to a situation where investments tend to go to countries where the [[price]] of labor and [[tax]]ation are low, thus increasing the added value produced for the investor, which of course is exploitation in the Marxist sense.

Anyway... If someone has an idea of how [[capital]] can be [[identified]] (this is a neccessary step to achieve the almost [[utopia]]n [[features|feature]] of actually [[tracking capital]], please put it in [[Identifying capital]] and do bear in mind that there is always the [[grey economy]] ([[tax dodging]], [[pension dodging]], [[falsely claimed subsidies]]...) and the [[dark economy]] (straight out illegal activities like [[human trafficing]], [[drug trafficing]] [[illegal arms trade]], [[bribery]], [[money laundring]] ...) which will slowly, but apparently inevitably (IMHO) make any [[accounting]] scheme more and more inconsistent with the reality of things.

I'd really love it if we could tackle this "what is money, where does it go, who desides where it goes, what it does there and so forth..." swamp of questions. I don't believe we are going to achieve any concrete stuff in the field of [[tracing capital]] but it'd be a fun excercise.