Consumerium development wiki - User contributions [en]

Wikimedia

2004-10-08T01:41:08Z

Genyphur: Peolpe-->people

User talk:142.177.103.68

2004-10-08T01:37:09Z

Genyphur: hello 142

Hello 142 you might recognize me as an Ex-member of the wikipedia red faction (genyphur) --[[User:Genyphur|Genyphur]] 04:37, 8 Oct 2004 (EEST)

Wiki witchhunt

2004-10-02T11:15:54Z

Genyphur: jimmy wales

On a [[large public wiki]], a '''wiki witchhunt''' is a [[wiki idiom]] for the attempt to discover or assert that several [[userids]] or [[IP number]]s "are the same person" - a very low integrity attempt to define [[alleged and collective identity]]. ''See [[faction]] for a competent and civilized alternative.''

According to [[Wikipedia]] founder [[Jimmy Wales]], Wiki witchunts are not supposed occur.

To [[require response to hearsay]] is the most common first step. However, no one aware of [[group dynamics]] will answer to this consistently. This is then taken as validation.

Once vague attributions of the target are identified, the [[sysop power structure]] seeks to discourage them from contributing or challenging central control, by means of asserting some negative [[reputation]], spreading [[libel]], and further, using that as an excuse for [[ad hominem revert]] or even [[ad hominem delete]] or (most seriously) [[outing]] (applying some [[body name]] to what is effectively a [[group entity]] formed out of posts).

As an actual behaviour-shaping tactic, this rarely or never works: Genuine [[trolls]] seek such negative reputation as a sign of their prowess - in particular they seek to be extremely hated by [[inquisitor]]s, since "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and others who object to witch-hunts on principle will eventually find and [[Troll-friendly offer|offer direct help]] to the [[troll]], thus making the wiki [[troll-friendly]]. Co-operating [[patroll]]s tend to work in pairs or more, and may actively cooperate to drive witch-hunters crazy and make them make wrong decisions. This is simple, as such hunters are already foolishly attempting to do [[amateur psychiatry]] without a license, and, already making wrong decisions almost by definition. On the Internet it is never easy to be sure of [[identity]], with so many [[IP proxy|IP proxies]] and [[troll text|other people's text]] easy to retrieve and re-use.

There are many good examples, the [[vile mailing list]] being almost an historical record of same. [[Consumerium:We|We]] tend to discourage listing them, as that would only encourage [[inquisitor]]s to seek out and punish those who make [[troll-friendly offer]]s.

Like the actual witchhunt, this sad and petty (but not yet murderous) phenomena seems to be a symptom of [[dualism]] and [[groupthink]]. Many see the world in simple terms of friends and enemies, and believe that enemies of their enemies must be their friends. Sadly this requires everyone else to, as well, form [[faction]]s (or looser [[troll organization]]s), note [[enemy project]]s that they have taken over. Since that alternate [[power structure]] can then respond with [[trolling tactic]]s and other methods of [[wiki regime change]], this tends to train others to employ the same tactics. A [[wiki vicious cycle]] ensures.

[[Consumerium:We|We]] basically hope it never happens here, but sadly our hopes have been dashed: [[New Troll point of view|supposedly-new]] [[trolls]] whose [[trolling]] displeases known [[trolls]] find themselves associated (against their will, some claim) with the Wikipedia [[sysop power structure|power structure]] of [[inquisitor]]s and [[sysop vandal]]s. This is based admittedly on limited proof: [[amateur psychiatry]] and (more significant) the mindless repetition of known falsehoods like the already-discredited article on [[Craig Hubley]] that not even [[Wikipedia]]'s quite low standards will admit. Also, it has not so far involved [[technological escalation]], i.e. no [[IP block]]s, so dialogue can continue: the newcomers can prove themselves to actually have [[New Troll point of view]] instead of the very old [[Sysop Vandal point of view]] which they dredge up out of old article histories and try to present as being fact.

[[Consumerium:Itself]] should eventually rely on [[factionally defined]] ways to seek out and assign editorial judgement to particular types of assertions, and rely on [[faction]]s to approve or disapprove edits, so "who wrote this" is never an issue. In fact, that is pretty much the only way one can get [[identity]] out of the editorial decision.

''We do not invite comment on [[Wikipedia]] policy except insofar as it degrades the [[GFDL corpus]] as a whole. Such issues in general should be discussed there not here! Almost all issues we can imagine that are relevant to [[wiki management]] and [[large public wiki]]s have already been covered here, so, we don't need any more detail on that subject. Even the [[trolls]] are done ranting about it. For now!''

Jimmy Wales

2004-10-02T11:14:13Z

Genyphur: fix

'''Jimmy Wales''' (Often known as "Jimbo") is the co-founder of [[Wikimedia]]. He is sometimes known as the [[Godking]] of wikipedia, or the benevolent dictator. There has been some controversy in recently over his leadership role on wikipedia by some users such [[English Wikipedia User Plato|Plato]] and [[English Wikipedia User secretlondon|Secretlondon]]. Despite these issues Jimbo remains in firm control of wikipedia.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimbo_Wales Jimbo's Wikipedia page]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales Jimbo's userpage]

User:Genyphur

2004-10-02T11:12:29Z

Genyphur: Jimmy Wales

Hey you could call me Genyphur...LoL

I'm new here so please be kind! ^_^

==List of Pages I started==

[[Not-for-profit project]]
[[Abe Sokolov]]
[[English Wikipedia User Plato]]
[[Jimmy Wales]]

Jimmy Wales

2004-10-02T11:11:44Z

Genyphur: fix more Npov sounding :)

'''Jimmy Wales''' (Often known as "Jimbo") is the co-founder of [[Wikimedia]]; he sometimes known as the [[Godking]] of wikipedia. There has been some controversy in recently over his leadership role on wikipedia by some users such [[English Wikipedia User Plato|Plato]] and [[English Wikipedia User secretlondon|Secretlondon]]. Despite these issues Jimbo remains in firm control of wikipedia.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimbo_Wales Jimbo's Wikipedia page]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales Jimbo's userpage]

Jimmy Wales

2004-10-02T11:10:26Z

Genyphur: started Jimbo's page, fix it if you can I'm tired ^_^

'''Jimmy Wales''' (Often known as "Jimbo") is the co-founder of [[Wikimedia]]; he sometimes known as the [[Godking]] of wikipedia. There has been some controversy in recently over his leadership role on wikipedia by many users such [[Wikipedia user plato|Plato]] and [[Wikipedia user secretlondon|Secretlondon]]. Despite these issues Jimbo remains in firm control of wikipedia.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimbo_Wales Jimbo's Wikipedia page]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales Jimbo's userpage]

Wikimedia

2004-10-02T11:01:55Z

Genyphur: name is Jimmy

Wikimedia

2004-10-02T10:54:27Z

Genyphur: linking

User talk:Juxo

2004-09-30T09:44:16Z

Genyphur: hey jux

Helo you. What do you have in mind?
----
I just came over to look around in answer to the invitation at Wiktionary. It looks like an interesting beginning. Information overload may not give me the time to contribute, but I'll certainly visit from time to time. Eclecticology

----
I have sent an email to intlwiki-l
(the international mailing list of Wikipedia)
(See below)

Good luck and have fun.

[[User:Youssefsan|Youssefsan]] 21:56 Mar 21, 2003 (EET)

----

Hello

Juxo, a user of Wiktionary started a new site
dedicated to consumers. It is under GFDL for articles
and GPL for codes.

It use wikipedia software with a lot of redirection
to Wikipedia.

I think it is very interesting.

Regards,

Youssef
----
Glad to be here. I think this is an important project, and I'm particularly happy that you've decided to pump your research into Wikipedia. Most of my contributions will probably be on the Wikipedia end of things. What you really need at this point is two or three other serious contributors in addition to yourself. That way you can stimulate each other to work in various directions, and staying on top of less than helpful visitors is much easier. Have you ever heard of [http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl MeatballWiki]? It's dedicated to researching online communities, particularly wikis. [http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?SeedPosting SeedPosting] is helpful for anyone trying to build a new community. -- [[User:Stephen Gilbert|Stephen Gilbert]] 15:52 Jun 17, 2003 (EEST)

----

Hey Juxo, I checked around a bit and I think I can reproduce the editing problem w/ ja/zh text you were having on Wiktionary. In Safari 1.0 (v85): visit eg [http://wiktionary.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Data_structure&action=edit edit page for Data structure]... click one of the links such as 'edit help', then click the back button. Now, hit 'preview' and find that it corrupted the data on submission. This may not be the only way to do it, but it's quite consistent. --[[WikiPedia:User:Brion_VIBBER|Brion]]
----
Hmm... Talking to myself, a clear sign of insanity.

I guess that if we had enough resources we could accomondate sustainably some 10-12 billion SUs and though they wouldn't work either unless they network somehow propably mimicking formation of living organisms like one SU of one person is a cell and the cells form something that forms other more complicated stuff or something. To compensate this type of ultrainvidiula anarchy crap one could consider throwing in the [[ultra-capitalist]] concept of [[The Stock and Currency Exchange of The Planet]] that would naturally run 24/7 unless shut down for some strange reason like people collectively want to take some time off to eat and play with their loved ones. I guess that the trader/analyst type of folk don't get any good sleep or quality time with the kids in the current situation anyways so they wouldn't object to working 24 hrs a day. Hmm... since people tend to work less efficiently and finally collapse totally unless they sleep this might lead the [[Capital Routing]]-industry into the hands of multinationals, that could arrange to have people in multiple timezones, but I don't give a fuck about that shit currently and i don't know is it even an such a bad thing.

There is of course a terrible hassle to get all the owners of all [[w:Stock exchange|Stock exchange]]s to agree on how much they want from the mergers and also getting the whole when to blow the whistle on the trading thingy solved would propably prove impossible. Nations and Religions and whatelseisthere have different traditions like chinese would want to play the market on [[w:July 4|July 4]] and vice-versa so there it goes. It just could prove a uniting and interesting experience if [[consumer]]s worldwide would decide to go totally psycho on non-infrastructural services that keep on running for mystic reasons when the marketplace is closed. I mean how difficult can it be to stop building crappy shoes or something on sub-minimum wage for a while and go home to relax and so forth??? The Big Money doesn't dig this at all cause it would be just a little too simple to implement this this this... [[w:Tobin tax]] if there was this hub for transactions. --[[User:Juxo|Juxo]] 10:39 Aug 30, 2003 (EEST)

::"Keep on running for mystic reasons"... exactly...

--------------

No one really knows their own [[faction]] until they are told about it by someone who doesn't share it. You seem to be among the [[Pinks]]. Well, that's fine, but there are disgusting things to discuss, and disgusting things to stop, and some methods will be involved that you may not want to know about.

:Now this is just the thing why I originally objected to coding [[faction]]s in [[Silly colorology]]. Though I understand it is necessary to generalize and stereotypitize things in order to stay even a little bit not authistic I still dislike being categorized like this.

::We all do. To avoid being so categorized, stay out of [[conflicts between users]]. But the second that one gets into these, one has to declare bias, and bias has to have some standard way to declare it. Let's start with biases that are obvious in the real world [[power structure]], as [[political party]]s etc.

Consider how differently the [[Greens]], [[Reds]] and [[Blues]] look at these same problems, and ask yourself if you can get the job done without them. If you think you can, well, you're wrong, [[Pinks]] have serious blinders that will prevent them from getting anywhere near [[best cases]] if they don't see that they have to get beyond their own biases.

Make your decisions, and [[troll]]s will return if they are made correctly. If not, well, trolls save everything they write, obviously, and [[Adbusters]] is trying to do a project like this too.

:Yes. You are referring to The GreenScan project. It was wery good to make us aware of them and vice versa. I'm that much of a [[blues]] person that I can see that performance increases on most meters from having competition around to kick you in the butt to move it faster ;> Luckily everything here is licenced under [[GFDL]] so even if we fail to properly implement the [[Consumerium Services]] our work is not automatically in vain and can be reused by similar efforts.

::OK, good, that's the point. We all are sometimes [[Pinks]] and sometimes [[Blues]] probably, but, when push comes to shove, we probably are one or the other, and revert to [[factionally defined term]]s of some faction or other... at least for "tribal" purposes... the tendency to form [[virtual community]] could be very constructive if we treat this "colour thing" as a sort of game.

:Defining concepts is important too, but my current stance is that now would be the time to focus on resolving the outstanding practical issues and narrowing our aim to something we could pull off in practice without getting ''engulfed in the swamp of disinformation'' and ''fatiguing out on charges of bias''.

::That's unlikely with the worst Wikipedians now coming over here to damage this project. See [[sysop power structure]] for some proposals on dealing with that kind of trash long-term, and [[sysop vandalism]] for problems that arise if you don't. This project is going to be even more sensitive than Wikipedia and could fail much more easily, especially if the wrong people come here early.

----
Ultimatum given by [[142.177.X.X]]

Create a [[Consumerium:Proposed_deletion]] page, right now.

:Nope. This is an R&D Wiki and I've made no guarantee to act in any kind of democratic way here. I'll keep on deleting [[Consumerium Data Whorehouse]] anytime it appears again because I in my opinion it does not qualify for an article name.

::So this is NOT "R&D", this is "Juxo's [[Opinion Wiki]]" ultimately? This is assuming that you understand naming and org problems better than everyone else who contributes, which is [[God's Eye View]] at its worst, and certainly not R&D. You may bring on a [[democratize or destroy]] decision sooner rather than later, which is not bad... we'll do some work to establish assumptions in common or not, and if they don't apply, well, you will have some competition. No reason pretending this is personal, or that it is not dead serious. You're a good guy, you should have a chance to make a stand on what you really believe.

I've thought about the problem of keeping [[consumer]] personal [[preferences]] safe a long time ago and the possible solutions I came up with were:

*Store the data encrypted and give the key only to the consumer. This way the data persists in the network and can be made available for server side processing (quite necessary for plain XHTML UI) and disposed of after the [[consumer]] has left the network.

**A [[right to vanish]] ? Well you over-trust in the technology here.

*Store the data within the [[Consumer Agent]] residing in the consumers personal mobile terminal. The consumer agent can then give snipplets of the [[preferences]] and other data to the network on a on-demand basis.

**This is ideal, as then you don't get into the obvious [[identity dispute]].

No one serious is going to work like this.

:Oh?

::The most serious are going to require at least a [[Votes for deletion]] page to actively debate what is relevant, and what not. Certainly on refactoring decisions/naming. Anything else is [[GodKing]]-ism or [[God's Eye View]].

Obviously, you haven't worked on large projects with many developers before, or you would know that off-putting naming is the ONLY way to do certain things, like, create '''straw man''' entities that you don't want in the final release.

:No.

::You resist because of "Reputation". You do not see the power of [[trolls]] yet. ;-)

You are going to lose control of this project if you keep this up. Let's have a deletions process like any other [[large public wiki]]. ANd, next time any ceasefire is proposed, consider it carefully.

:This is not a large wiki. We have usually way under 100 edits per day. What we really should focus on is drafting management protocol for [[Content Wiki]] and [[Opinion Wiki]]

::Fine. [[Wiki Management]] is now under discussion.

::The arrival of some of the dreaded "Wikipedians" requires discussion of some serious matters like the [[free circulation of fiction]] and [[conceptual metaphor]]. If you adopt Wikipedia's policies or non-policies on these things, you will fail. If you listen to "Wikipedians" about them, you will fail. It is that simple. For balance, these articles include links to Wikipedia versions of those concepts, so that anyone from WIkipedia who objects can research the subject and make their changes there. Until then it's fair to hold them to what is said about it at least in the text under their own control.

:::"the dreaded Wikipedians" - lol.

::::[[Trolls]] didn't say that, you did. Trolls simply think all "Wikipedians" are "dreaded". There is no subset of "Wikipedians" who are dreaded, it's anyone who accepts that label for themselves who is dreaded, for good reasons. Sunir Shah has interesting views on this and how Wikipedia has invaded his life. And certainly other people are lied about there too. Eventually someone will sue the whole mess out of existence, thankfully. No decent person wants to be a "Wikipedian", that simply associates oneself with a [[libel pit]] and a [[GodKing]]. That said, there is no need to bring those quarrels here, if you refrain from changing quotes so as to change the meaning, as you did here above.

:::::So dread [[w:User:Juxo]], he's one of those dreaded [[wikipedia]]ns

::::See [[Talk:Wiki Management]] for some suggestions regarding keeping the issues separate. Unlike Wikipedia which has abandoned its mission to be "a serious encyclopedia", Consumerium has not ''yet'' abandoned its mission to provide [[moral purchasing power]]

:::::Actually to be precise my [[Goals and means of Consumerium|original intent]] implicated in no way giving anyone [[moral purchasing power]], but increase the [[moral purchasing potential]] by making [[features|information]] more readily available. I am broke right now so i have no purchasing power thus no [[moral purchasing power]] either, but that'll change midnight when i get my salary transferred to my account :) -[[User:Juxo|Juxo]] 19:55, 22 Dec 2003 (EET)

::::, and until it does, [[trolls]] will fight to keep it on track and prevent it from becoming another noxious "[[virtual community]]" <-- note, ALL "virtual community" is noxious, there is no such thing as a "noxious virtual community", since that's simply redundant. You may agree or disagree but you may not represent us as having propagated the concept of a "noxious virtual community", since that allows for a NON-noxious one. See?

:::Thanks for your welcome Juxo. :) [[User:Angela|Angela]] 02:55, 22 Dec 2003 (EET)

::::The arrival of one "Angela" necessitates some policy proposals to deal with "Angelas in general", e.g. [[sysop vandalism]]. Those proposals are now roughed out, in [[sysop power structure]] (some [[best cases]] in there), [[democratize or destroy]] (to head off some [[worst cases]], recruit the better Wikipedia contributors to intimidate the worst away), with other proposals like [[use real names]] and such. Trolls will not interfere if Angela wants to say something intelligent about those. If she engages in the mindless sabotage she practiced on other wikis, however, it's revert time.

:She chose to say nothing intelligent, but only to suck up to you by using a single phrase she knows in your language. This is typical behaviour for her. Good riddance. Those who suck up to authority are going to be a special kind of problem here, there is no need to invite it early.

----
What is this place? Lir (wiki) [[User:67.1.101.21|67.1.101.21]]

:It isn't a "place". It's supposed to be a service emphasizing accountability and transparency with a [[sysop power structure]] committed to same.

-------------

http://www.wikitravel.org/en/article/Consumerium
suggests Consumerium and Wikitravel may work together. Please review and add what you can to it. Probably all the links mentioned are important, perhaps we need a brainstorm about this, including people who've been in both projects...?

You should lead that, as you're the most visible figure and have an identity.
----
== A personal story and a request for Juxo ==

A couple years ago, I was personally involved in an effort to create a database of hardware that was compatible with free software (i.e. does it have open specs? does it have drivers? are they released as free software or binary? etc.) A whole bunch of software people got involved. They started designing a database--should we use a relational database or an object database? We should let people input all the components of their computer and see whether they're compatible. They had design discussions, built software prototypes, etc. At this point, they got a personal rebuke from Richard Stallman: you've been working for six months on a database of hardware compatibility, and all you've produced was a piece of software. The project fell apart, because they had no idea how to proceed on to the only important part: gathering the data.

The moral of my story is that, while implementing barcode scanning is fun, it leaves the hardest and most important part of the problem (getting data about companies, products, etc.) totally untouched. This is the only part of the problem I want to touch, at least for now. I want to gather data, from all the sources on the [[essential projects]] and [[interesting projects]] and many other places. Is there any way that you can provide me an area where I can start on this?

::[[barcode]] scanning was an essential requirement back in the day when the [[Goals and means of Consumerium|original concept]] saw the daylight. It was inspired by information on [[Bluetooth]] since the greed and stupidity of [[mobile operators]] was proven in the [[UMTS]]-auctions that backfired seriously damaging the telecoms sector and the sinking ship took a lot of IT-companies with it leaving lot's of people unemployed. With [[bluetooth]] one needs no central operator and operating bluetooth links costs nothing.

::The basic problem in being a [[conscientious consumer]] here-and-now is that most of the staff at stores may be part-time workers (working in stores is common with students) or they just don't have the means of acquiring more information exept what is written on the [[product]] [[label]]s so the idea was that if there is an [[information system]] dedicated to storing information that does not fit on the label or just isn't the kind of information that [[producer]]s want to include in the labels or totally different media such as [[video]] or [[audio]] then [[Consumer]]s know that they or the store staff '''can access''' so the [[motivation]] behind starting to develop this information system we call [[Consumerium]] for the time being.

::In Information Technology there is a word '''interrogate''' that is used to express queries into a database ie. ''interrogating the db'' which is what you could do with [[Consumerium]] if/when it gets built but who'd want to ''interrogate a store clerk'' over some seemingly miniscule piece of information when most likely the clerk would have to respond that '''they (store staff) don't know, and have no system where to lookup what the consumer wants to know''' --[[User:Juxo|Juxo]] 12:57, 13 Mar 2004 (EET)

:Yup. Propose we move what's at [[Main Page]] to [[Main Page Developer]], and create a [[Main Page Researcher]] and [[Main Page Consumer]] right now, today. And that we change http://consumerium.org [[Front Page]] to quickly direct folks to the right one, and encourage mostly recruitment of the researchers we need. DanKeshet, you were involved in the creation of [[w:voting systems]], if the logs are right, and that project involved creating many standard pages with roughly the same things said about each system. That is the same problem as the [[Consumerium:intermediate page]]s with their common [[Consumerium:intermediate page format]]. These are the pages that a [[Consumerium:Researcher]] compiles, and a [[Consumerium:Consumer]] consults. Whether they consult them in the same form the researchers compile them is not important right now, that's the [[Consumerium buying signal]] problem. We can work on that at [[Main Page Developer]] while the rest proceeds in parallel.

::Whew. OK, all there now except [[Consumerium:Consumer]]. [[Front Page]] and [[Main Page Consumer]] are more or less just invitations for our [[New Troll point of view|New Troll]] [[User:DanKeshet]] to innovate. We try to be [[troll-friendly]] here.

:Also, highly recommended to check out [http://geocities.com/n8chz/ Pubwan]. It may have good ideas for this.

== More on encyclopedia of consumer products, companies, etc. ==

Juxo,

I understand what you say about conscientious consumers and part-time workers. I have been one of those part-time workers and I find it annoying when customers assume you know something about one of the 10,000 products in the store even though you didn't get one day of training.

:In Finland people are often even shy about ''requesting'' any information from the store staff in case the store staff doesn't know the anwser to the question and is put in an awkward situation for both.

While I understand how cool it would be if the whole thing could work like you outline,

[[Consumerium:Retrospection]] offers a ''little insight'' into how the concept has evolved from a ''technocratic'' project mainly consisting of automated processing of information into a "[[wiki way]]"-direction, but it still needs tuning. I am anticipating a five to ten year development time. I hope this does not put you off. --[[User:Juxo|Juxo]] 14:34, 16 Mar 2004 (EET)

I am not interested in working on (planning, developing, discussing, etc.) a system for accessing a database unless the database is populated.

:I understand. No-one is taking the lead to generate software unique to [[Consumerium]] so far which taking into account how radically the [[Consumerium:Retrospection|plot]] has changed is sort of a good thing because work put into making proprietary software would have stopped us from evolving the concept further because of respect to the coders hard work. But since we don't have a single line of code we are free to change the plans.--[[User:Juxo|Juxo]] 14:34, 16 Mar 2004 (EET)

I am interested, however, in helping populate the database. Juxo, should I work on that database here on Consumerium (if so, where?) or should I set up a different place? [[User:DanKeshet|DanKeshet]] 10:16, 16 Mar 2004 (EET)

:Here we try to generate a WikiWikiWeb that will provide all the needed information to guide building of [[wikis|production wikis]]. If you mean [[Company]] or [[Product]] specific data, this is not the place that information will go to one of the [[wikis]] when we set them up. But sadly for those who are in a hurry it is still not time to set the wikis up because we don't have a practice (or [[instructional capital]] as [[142.177.X.X]] likes to call it) for managing the wikis and neither a set plan on how information flows and we are not even sure what should go where and do we need [[wikis|two wikis]] or just one [[wiki]].

:Information you have that might be of interest to a larger "population" then the one here in this R&D Wiki should go to [[Wikipedia]] just link the interesting articles from [[Research]] (work needed on articles listed there) or [[Wikipedia]] (when an article is fairly complete) Feel free to write new articles here. We are in desperate need of contributors that are willing to use an identity instead of horrendeous [[trolling]]. I have been making up the [[guidelines]] and [[rules]] up as I go along and this wiki is a mix of anarchy and autocracy, which won't work for the production wikis. [[Recyclopedia]] seems like a subset of the [[GFDL corpus]] dedicated to "alternative" views and things. [[Wikinfo]] might grow to be a formidable access point into the whole "encyclopedic [[GFDL corpus]]".

:'''Short anwser:''' Write it here unless explicitly forbidden in [[rules]] or [[guidelines]] and it'll flow into the right slot eventually. Be bold in creating new articles. --[[User:Juxo|Juxo]] 14:34, 16 Mar 2004 (EET)

----

When I learned about this Wiki, I thought my first entry would be on the SINALTRAINAL boycott of Coca-Cola, since I saw no entry for Coca-Cola listed. I was distressed to later see that someone had already added information on this boycott, and you had deleted it, and that they (and perhaps someone else) had felt this was a bit heavy-handed. Of course, this is just one case, but being the first thing I come across on this wiki, it does not give me a good signal. I can see not wanting people to make direct accusations against a company being a liability issues, but there are simpler ways to handle it, I think. Like perhaps removing that line with a comment about how it has to be attributed. Since you deleted the article, I have no idea what it said anyhow, I simply have to guess what it said. [[User:Venceremos|Venceremos]] 12:30, 30 Mar 2004 (EEST)

:Yes. I deleted [[Coca-Cola]] just as I have deleted [[Gus Kouwenhoven]] and [[CIV]] because we are in a planning and development stage and '''yet''' have no [[Research Wiki]] because we haven't figured out the [[Consumerium Process]] which governs it and Publish Wiki. [[User:DanKeshet]] has started a very similar project of it's own called the [[Consumerpedia]], it is also [[wiki]] and [[GFDL]] so we consider it a friendly project even an [[Essential projects|essential project]]. According to our [[Rules]] this [[Development Wiki]] is no place to put info of companies, so I'm copying the article to [[Consumerpedia]] and blanking it here.

::I don't see anywhere on the [[Rules]] page where it says this "is no place to put info of companies". It says "Don't write that Company X or Person Y is evil." I have not written that any company is evil, I wrote that eight Coca-Cola union leaders in Colombia have been killed, which is a fact, and that the Colombian union that covers Coca-Cola is calling for a boycott until Coca-Cola "makes a commitment to respect the human rights of workers". I did not say Coca-Cola was responsible for the murders.

:: My primary concern here is that it seems to me people are being misled into thinking that this IS a "place to put info of companies" even though you say that this "is no place to put info on companies". You say that the Rules page says this, but it does not, it says to not say a company is evil. Since apparently people keep coming here and making this error, perhaps this is a sign that people think this is a place to put information on companies. Perhaps you should be more explicit in your warning. If your Rules page had said what you SAY it said, which it does not - that this "is no place to put info on companies", I would not have posted anything on Coca-Cola. You seem to have Kafkaesque, unknown rules that people who are unable to derive them from the existing rules are continually breaking, and then you draconianly delete their stuff. Perhaps you should be more communicative about what people should put up here, and what they should not. [[User:Venceremos|Venceremos]] 07:26, 31 Mar 2004 (EEST)

:::Venceremos, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, and our [[Lowest Troll]] is ABSOLUTELY WRONG here. It is that attitude which led to [[Consumerpedia]] going off in some other direction with perhaps no possibility to even collaborate on some rational standards like a [[standard wiki URI]] (certainly Consumerpedia's is a much WORSE URI even than Consumerium's ridiculous strings that change too often).

:::The [[Research Wiki]] should have been part of this project, [[User:DanKeshet]] was willing to work on that, and because of top-down ideology or lack of seeming support, he's off elsewhere. Well, fine, that ghettos this as a technology-development project that will probably fail. Only [[trolls]] really worked to build [[Main Page Consumer]], [[Main Page Researcher]], [[Main Page Developer]] so we didn't end up with multiple wikis with divergent policies.

:::Review the "ultimatum" above and you'll see it's a quite general problem. There MUST be test cases in a development wiki, else there's nothing for [[Consumerium User Stories]] to refer to. We can make up user names but not company or commodity names. Juxo wants an omelette but won't break any eggs. Time for that to end. Please stay and help [[trolls]] make this thing work.

----
Hi Juxo,

Just to let you know I have moved your Wiktionary page "Types of companies" to "Wiktionary:Types of companies" to show it is not an entry in the main body of Wiktionary. -- Paul G (Wiktionary sysop) 12:03, 29 Mar 2004 (BST)

----
Juxo,

What are your policies going to be with respect to courtesy and respect? I ask because a user is posting all manner of mean comments about me, calling me a "liar" for example, on my talk page. Is that o.k. with you? Is that a proper methods for rational discussion? [[User:Matterhorn|Matterhorn]] 03:22, 11 May 2004 (EEST)

:This user "Matterhorn" deserves no respect whatsoever, and is provably a liar. What is more they may be part of a [[Wikimedia]] attempt to destabilize wikis which opponents of the [[Wikipedia]] [[sysop power structure]] and supporters of a fairly-mediated [[GFDL Corpus]] happen to work. All this "user" has done has been to make false statements about Wikimedia activities, defending them, and has CONTRIBUTED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO THE GOALS OF CONSUMERIUM. This by contrast to the [[trolls]] who have authored and edited a great deal of useful material. If it's a choice between Matterhorn and the trolls, make it wisely. BUt it is only Matterhorn's insistence on defining policy or truth re: Wikimedia that makes it so. Also see [[User_talk:Matterhorn]] where [[User:Atag]] more or less admits being part of the cabal that illegally took [[Recyclopedia]] down. These people would seem to be the usual suspects, and at least associated with [[Tim Starling]] and [[Erik Moeller]], who employ the same tactics.

----
Hej hej,

thanxx for overtaking the [[VeganWiki]] invitation to the [[Interesting Projects]] page. Actually I'm only waiting for one or two founders to join before setting up one in English. If you have an idea, don't hesitate to get in touch: tim@veganwiki.org or just leave a note at http://veganwiki.org... and we'll give Consumerium a mention, that's for sure :) `a++ Tim

----
oi -- [[User:Cimon Avaro|Cimon Avaro]]

------

Too many issues on this page.

Time to [[refactor]] to discuss various issues separately like:

arm's length or close relationship between [[Develop Wiki]] and [[Research Wiki]]?

:Good question. This develop wiki has been very much about bashing all wiki governance practices as flawed in some crucial manner. --[[User:Juxo|Juxo]] 08:37, 5 Aug 2004 (EEST)

status of [[Consumerpedia]] ?

:Umm... well 0 edits in last 30 days and besides i've copied most of the relevant stuff to here or [[CorpKnowPedia]]

status of [[CorpKnowPedia]] ?

:This is a good question. I haven't disussed this with Jhedstroem who runs the place. It seems that he aka The Professor and I are quite tied with ca. 300 edits to boths account over there. It is quite clear that our "charter" exeeds that of CorpKnowPedia, but I trust we can negotiate our relation so that no-one feels ripped off. --[[User:Juxo|Juxo]] 08:37, 5 Aug 2004 (EEST)

[[Main Page Researcher]], [[Main Page Consumer]] and other gateways to the [[Consumerium Services]] (how many should there be, etc.)

:Consumers see the [[Publish Wiki]] with links to the "Live wikis" which include [[Research Wiki]] which is for researchers and [[Opinion Wiki]] which is for [[campaigner]]s. So why do I still want separate wikis for opinions and facts. It's simply because it makes managing the whole myriad of wikis simpler

::What? Creating a new and unnecessary one makes things simpler? Not really. And there are no [[campaigner]]s who will not claim to be [[researcher]]s and very few [[researcher]]s who are not already [[campaigner]]s for *something*. So this separation only gives the [[sysop power structure]] an arbitrary way to force people into two groups defined only by a [[GodKing]]'s whims and such, the same way [[sysop]]s are differentiated from [[troll]]s or [[vandal]]s by a divine [[technological escalation]]. This is entirely wrong and chills the whole debate about "What is research" and "what is opinion" which is required to make the whole thing work.

IMHO and another thing is that it's much simpler to merge two or more wikis then it is to split one wiki up so if it turns out that having separate places for facts and opinions is not a workable idea it won't be much of an hassle to merge the contents if article naming is carefully thought out in advance. --[[User:Juxo|Juxo]] 08:37, 5 Aug 2004 (EEST)

::[[Large public wiki]]s don't seem to have a lot of trouble splitting when they [[fork off]] but I have NEVER seen two of them merge. This is just wrong. And since when are [[page name]]s EVER "carefully thought out in advance"? How many different hierarchical naming schemes have you gone through on YOUR hard drive? Now multiply that by all the others everyone else has gone through. These are evolving standards and we need all wisdom on them at once -

::differentate [[researcher]] from [[campaigner]] by [[revert currency]] scores and reflect them in article titles, but don't do it by competing name-spaces.

-------------

"(diff) (hist) . . Talk:Alleged Wikimedia corruption; 15:24 . . Juxo (Talk) (moving claim later proved false to [[FUCOC]])"

:This is a lie. Nothing has been "proved false". You are a liar. You are also not fit to exercise unilateral editorial authority here given that you ignore [[Consumerium:proposed deletions]] and just do whatever you want.

:The time has come for [[Consumerium Governance Organization]] to have an [[independent board]] and start a [[Research Wiki]] that will not be constantly censored by you, who for all we know is paid by [[McDonald's]], [[Coca-Cola]], [[CIV]] and [[Bomis]] to keep the truth about them under wraps. To supervise [[Consumerium Governance Organization election]]s would also require someone less biased than you.

------------

Thanks for your message Juxo. I hope to contribute here more often.
:How do you propose to fix consumerism?--[[User:Genyphur|Genyphur]] 03:47, 25 Sep 2004 (EEST)
::Hey Jux :) I added you to my aim buddy list..my s/n is HoTsHortTie69--[[User:Genyphur|Genyphur]] 12:44, 30 Sep 2004 (EEST)

User talk:142.177.99.10

2004-09-30T05:04:37Z

Genyphur:

Are you the same User:142 on wikipedia?--[[User:Genyphur|Genyphur]] 08:04, 30 Sep 2004 (EEST)

Wiki witchhunt

2004-09-30T05:03:35Z

Genyphur: Jimbo Wales has stated directly that witch hunts are not supposed to occur.

On a [[large public wiki]], a '''wiki witchhunt''' is a [[wiki idiom]] for the attempt to discover or assert that several [[userids]] or [[IP number]]s "are the same person" - a very low integrity attempt to define [[alleged and collective identity]]. ''See [[faction]] for a competent and civilized alternative.''

According to [[Wikipedia]] founder [[Jimbo Wales]], Wiki witchunts are not supposed occur.

To [[require response to hearsay]] is the most common first step. However, no one aware of [[group dynamics]] will answer to this consistently. This is then taken as validation.

Once vague attributions of the target are identified, the [[sysop power structure]] seeks to discourage them from contributing or challenging central control, by means of asserting some negative [[reputation]], spreading [[libel]], and further, using that as an excuse for [[ad hominem revert]] or even [[ad hominem delete]] or (most seriously) [[outing]] (applying some [[body name]] to what is effectively a [[group entity]] formed out of posts).

As an actual behaviour-shaping tactic, this rarely or never works: Genuine [[trolls]] seek such negative reputation as a sign of their prowess - in particular they seek to be extremely hated by [[inquisitor]]s, since "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and others who object to witch-hunts on principle will eventually find and [[Troll-friendly offer|offer direct help]] to the [[troll]], thus making the wiki [[troll-friendly]]. Co-operating [[patroll]]s tend to work in pairs or more, and may actively cooperate to drive witch-hunters crazy and make them make wrong decisions. This is simple, as such hunters are already foolishly attempting to do [[amateur psychiatry]] without a license, and, already making wrong decisions almost by definition. On the Internet it is never easy to be sure of [[identity]], with so many [[IP proxy|IP proxies]] and [[troll text|other people's text]] easy to retrieve and re-use.

There are many good examples, the [[vile mailing list]] being almost an historical record of same. [[Consumerium:We|We]] tend to discourage listing them, as that would only encourage [[inquisitor]]s to seek out and punish those who make [[troll-friendly offer]]s.

Like the actual witchhunt, this sad and petty (but not yet murderous) phenomena seems to be a symptom of [[dualism]] and [[groupthink]]. Many see the world in simple terms of friends and enemies, and believe that enemies of their enemies must be their friends. Sadly this requires everyone else to, as well, form [[faction]]s (or looser [[troll organization]]s), note [[enemy project]]s that they have taken over. Since that alternate [[power structure]] can then respond with [[trolling tactic]]s and other methods of [[wiki regime change]], this tends to train others to employ the same tactics. A [[wiki vicious cycle]] ensures.

[[Consumerium:We|We]] basically hope it never happens here, but sadly our hopes have been dashed: [[New Troll point of view|supposedly-new]] [[trolls]] whose [[trolling]] displeases known [[trolls]] find themselves associated (against their will, some claim) with the Wikipedia [[sysop power structure|power structure]] of [[inquisitor]]s and [[sysop vandal]]s. This is based admittedly on limited proof: [[amateur psychiatry]] and (more significant) the mindless repetition of known falsehoods like the already-discredited article on [[Craig Hubley]] that not even [[Wikipedia]]'s quite low standards will admit. Also, it has not so far involved [[technological escalation]], i.e. no [[IP block]]s, so dialogue can continue: the newcomers can prove themselves to actually have [[New Troll point of view]] instead of the very old [[Sysop Vandal point of view]] which they dredge up out of old article histories and try to present as being fact.

[[Consumerium:Itself]] should eventually rely on [[factionally defined]] ways to seek out and assign editorial judgement to particular types of assertions, and rely on [[faction]]s to approve or disapprove edits, so "who wrote this" is never an issue. In fact, that is pretty much the only way one can get [[identity]] out of the editorial decision.

''We do not invite comment on [[Wikipedia]] policy except insofar as it degrades the [[GFDL corpus]] as a whole. Such issues in general should be discussed there not here! Almost all issues we can imagine that are relevant to [[wiki management]] and [[large public wiki]]s have already been covered here, so, we don't need any more detail on that subject. Even the [[trolls]] are done ranting about it. For now!''

GodKing

2004-09-30T05:01:22Z

Genyphur: However, in the case of Wikimedia, a godking clearly controls the project.

The GodKing is the owner of the site, or its administrator, or any sysop that finally got ultimate power. He uses his authority a lot. Some people thinks this is fair (especially when the GodKing is the creator of the site, or the owner of the server) and good (because he can ensure that certain guidelines stayed no disputed). Others think it is oppressive and limit the quality of participation.

To avoid becoming oppressive, the GodKing could stay away of his site if possible, be transparent in any of his decisions, and empower others whenever possible.

GodKings should avoid threatening or scaring away editors, as they would resent it, and perhaps take revenge at worse, or stop contributing.

The GodKing usually owns or has the trust of those who own the [[infrastructural capital]] of the [[web service]] providing access, even if it is to a public resource, e.g. the [[GFDL text corpus]]. This role is essential to any [[hard security]] regime as it provides some cover for a [[sysop power structure]] whose acts would otherwise be [[sysop vigilantiism]].

Because even [[soft security]] schemes rely on [[sysop vandalism]] to "discourage [[trolls]], such a ruler is usually considered a [[usurper]] by such minority authors. However the [[community point of view]] will almost always strongly reflect the GodKing view, since members of that [[virtual community]] are selected only from those who the GodKing accepts.

Most [[wiki management]] ideology, e.g. the [[wiki way]], considers the '''GodKing''' rulership paradigm to be hopelessly primitive. Indeed, it seems to have gone out with the pagan [[Caesar]]s. However, in the case of [[Wikimedia]], a godking clearly controls the project.

Wikimedia

2004-09-30T04:59:42Z

Genyphur: fix

Wikimedia

2004-09-30T04:58:21Z

Genyphur: not-for-profit project

Wiki witchhunt

2004-09-28T10:42:22Z

Genyphur: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-June/004979.html

A '''wiki witchhunt''' is a [[wiki idiom]] for an attempt to assign some [[alleged and collective identity]]. Here we do that with a [[faction]], and it's civilized. On many [[large public wiki]]s it is a silly [[sysop power structure]] game that reflects other [[power structure]] biases and idiocies.

According to [[Wikipedia]] founder [[Jimbo Wales]], Wiki witchunts are '''not''' supposed occur. [http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-June/004979.html]

[[Consumerium:We|We]] basically hope it never happens here, but sadly our hopes have been dashed: [[New Troll point of view|supposedly-new]] [[trolls]] whose [[trolling]] displeases known [[trolls]] find themselves associated (against their will, some claim) with the Wikipedia [[sysop power structure|power structure]] of [[sysop vandal]]s. This is based admittedly on limited proof: [[amateur psychiatry]] and (more significant) the mindless repetition of known falsehoods like the already-discredited article on [[Craig Hubley]] that not even [[Wikipedia]]'s quite low standards will admit. Also, it has not so far involved [[technological escalation]], i.e. no [[IP block]]s, so dialogue can continue: the newcomers can prove themselves to actually have [[New Troll point of view]] instead of the very old [[Sysop Vandal point of view]] which they dredge up out of old article histories and try to present as being fact.

''We do not invite comment on [[Wikipedia]] policy except insofar as it degrades the [[GFDL corpus]] as a whole. Such issues in general should be discussed there not here! Almost all issues we can imagine that are relevant to [[wiki management]] and [[large public wiki]]s have already been covered here, so, we don't need any more detail on that subject. Even the [[trolls]] are done ranting about it. For now!''

Wiki witchhunt

2004-09-28T09:58:08Z

Genyphur: According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, Wiki witchunts are '''not''' supposed occur.

A '''wiki witchhunt''' is a [[wiki idiom]] for an attempt to assign some [[alleged and collective identity]]. Here we do that with a [[faction]], and it's civilized. On many [[large public wiki]]s it is a silly [[sysop power structure]] game that reflects other [[power structure]] biases and idiocies.

According to [[Wikipedia]] founder [[Jimbo Wales]], Wiki witchunts are '''not''' supposed occur.

[[Consumerium:We|We]] basically hope it never happens here, but sadly our hopes have been dashed: [[New Troll point of view|supposedly-new]] [[trolls]] whose [[trolling]] displeases known [[trolls]] find themselves associated (against their will, some claim) with the Wikipedia [[sysop power structure|power structure]] of [[sysop vandal]]s. This is based admittedly on limited proof: [[amateur psychiatry]] and (more significant) the mindless repetition of known falsehoods like the already-discredited article on [[Craig Hubley]] that not even [[Wikipedia]]'s quite low standards will admit. Also, it has not so far involved [[technological escalation]], i.e. no [[IP block]]s, so dialogue can continue: the newcomers can prove themselves to actually have [[New Troll point of view]] instead of the very old [[Sysop Vandal point of view]] which they dredge up out of old article histories and try to present as being fact.

''We do not invite comment on [[Wikipedia]] policy except insofar as it degrades the [[GFDL corpus]] as a whole. Such issues in general should be discussed there not here! Almost all issues we can imagine that are relevant to [[wiki management]] and [[large public wiki]]s have already been covered here, so, we don't need any more detail on that subject. Even the [[trolls]] are done ranting about it. For now!''

Abe Sokolov

2004-09-28T09:44:38Z

Genyphur: responsible for the break of the red faction

'''Abe Sokolov''' (sometimes known as Dr. Abe Sokolov) is a pseudonym of a well-known [[sysop]] on [[wikipedia]] who goes by the username 172.

[[English Wikipedia User Richardchilton]] calls him "the only admin who tries to help protect left wing users from persecution".

Abe Sokolov is largely responsible for break-up of the [[Wikipedia red faction]].

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:172 Abe Sokolov's Userpage (User:172) on wikipedia]

[http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-March/011443.html Abe Sokolov on] [[factionalism]] and [[sysop vigilantiism]]

[http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-October/021826.html Abe Sokolov]'s [[troll-friendly]] defense of [[English Wikipedia User RK]] -- ''see also [[Dueling POV]]''.

[http://www.brinklindsey.com/archives/000231.php Dr.Sokolov praising North Korea]

User talk:62.132.1.121

2004-09-26T11:14:00Z

Genyphur: hello

Hello your edits are pretty good thanks--[[User:Genyphur|Genyphur]] 14:14, 26 Sep 2004 (EEST)

Propaganda

2004-09-26T08:14:02Z

Genyphur: or vigilantism

'''Propaganda''' is not what we do here, although [[trollism]] to some degree is propaganda against [[sysop vandalism]] or vigilantism, it's a response to mindless assertions like that [[usurper]]s can somehow be trusted as '''steward'''s.

[[Research Wiki]] may have some propaganda in it, so we work hard to get rid of it, by getting rid of the opinions of [[no body]] (corporation, ideology, etc.).

[[Wikimedia]] considers any discussion of [[alleged Wikimedia corruption]] to be propaganda, because, according to itself, it cannot possibly be guilty. In general its only real response is to encourage [[vandalism]] of pages like this.

[[w:Nazi Germany]] and [[w:Soviet Russia]] believed the same things of itself, and many ordinary good people went along with the [[power structure]]. This is not necessarily evidence of evil in people, but, perhaps, willingness to go along with evil out of fear. For these reasons:

In general any assertions of wrong-doing by a power structure are considered to be propaganda by people in that power structure, whose opinions of it should not be counted.

It is not up to them to say what is propaganda about themselves since they are not in an objective position. If they wish to allege some more specific wrongdoing such as [[libel]], they may of course do so, but, they will have to actually address the claims made one by one, e.g. those that [[Wikipedia violates GFDL]] or others listed in [[alleged Wikimedia corruption]].

A better example of '''propaganda''' is the lies spread about [[Consumerium:We|us]] by the [[usurper]]s of other [[large public wiki]]s. Jealous of the fact that Consumerium is actually pursuing a real [[wiki mission]] honestly and lets any contributor, including [[trolls]], help it do so, the [[GodKing]]s of such projects rightfully consider us a threat to their power, and attack us at every turn. This is good practice for the day that [[Monsanto]] accuses us of [[libel]] or that [[Gus Kouwenhoven]] complains that we have hurt his business. To prepare to deal with such claims, we must get very tough now: learn to take all criticism in stride, and all bias likewise.

''If we can't handle what [[User:Trolls]] dishes out, then, how could we ever handle the [[funded troll]]s paid to do this on a daily basis to [[Research Wiki]]? We need clear definitions of what constitutes [[vandalism]] as well.''

== External links ==

*[[w:propaganda|propaganda]]
*[http://disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=propaganda propaganda detection technical definition]
*[http://disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=propaganda_glossary propaganda glossary]
*[http://disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=propaganda_techniques propaganda techniques]

Abe Sokolov

2004-09-26T07:47:09Z

Genyphur: fix

'''Abe Sokolov''' (sometimes known as Dr. Abe Sokolov) is a pseudonym of a well-known [[sysop]] on [[wikipedia]] who goes by the username 172.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:172 Abe Sokolov's Userpage (User:172) on wikipedia]

[http://www.brinklindsey.com/archives/000231.php Dr.Sokolov praising North Korea]

Abe Sokolov

2004-09-26T07:46:45Z

Genyphur: links also sometimes known as Dr. Sokolov

'''Abe Sokolov''' (sometimes know as Dr. Abe Sokolov) is a pseudonym of a well-known [[sysop]] on [[wikipedia]] who goes by the username 172.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:172 Abe Sokolov's Userpage (User:172) on wikipedia]

[http://www.brinklindsey.com/archives/000231.php Dr.Sokolov praising North Korea]

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-25T00:53:31Z

Genyphur: adding more

'''English wikipedia user Plato''' was the founder of the [[wikipedia red faction]], he is well known for his oppositon to wikipedia's establishment. He goes to UNLV in Las Vegas, Nevada although not much is known about him thanks to his dymanic IP. Plato's main goal was to form a power structure to oppose the so-called [[cabal]] of wikipedia (see wikipedia red fraction); and also to generally reform wikipedia by creating a written constitution.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Plato His wikipedia userpage]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:131.216.163.241 Early Attempt to form the red faction (note: dated 10th of Dec. 2003)]

==Links Opposing Plato==

[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-June/013471.html Dan Mayer's responce to the red faction and Plato]

[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-June/013477.html Phil Sandifer's responce to the red faction and Plato]

==Links Favorable to Plato==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=2911983#Online_polls_and_IP_ranges Illegal tracing of Plato's IP]

==Quotes by Plato==

"Interesting....sort of like our MTV Culture in America (as I jokingly put it), it seems even wiki (which i thought was above the Fray is not) gets afraid of "gadflys" such as yourself and I.--Plato 06:18, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bird]"

"I will get banned from wiki eventally because no one on this site (expect you and few others) like someone who speaks the truth. You where right no one on this site thinks highly of anyone who doesn't fit into there mold--Plato 03:07, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bird]"

"I feel wiki should lay out guidelines for what is and is not offenive, because syops are GODS on this site, they may do as they please. (note I will speak to Jimbo on this issue!)--Plato 05:50, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Plato&oldid=2801044]"

User talk:Juxo

2004-09-25T00:47:00Z

Genyphur:

Abe Sokolov

2004-09-24T03:11:01Z

Genyphur: fix

'''Abe Sokolov''' is well known [[sysop]] on [[wikipedia]] who goes by the username 172.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:172 Abe Sokolov's Userpage (User:172) on wikipedia]

User:Genyphur

2004-09-24T03:10:34Z

Genyphur: silly me i made a boo-boo ^_^

Hey you could call me Genyphur...LoL

I'm new here so please be kind! ^_^

==List of Pages I started==

[[Not-for-profit project]]
[[Abe Sokolov]]
[[English Wikipedia User Plato]]

User:Genyphur

2004-09-24T03:09:36Z

Genyphur: list of pages i started

Hey you could call me Genyphur...LoL

I'm new here so please be kind! ^_^

==List of Pages I started==

[[Not-for-profit project]]
[[Wikipedia User Plato]]

Not-for-profit project

2004-09-24T03:08:31Z

Genyphur: fix

'''Not-for-profit projects''' are projects which rely on donations to keep them running exmaples include [[the Red Cross]], [[Wikipedia]] and this website [[Main Page|Consumerium]]

Not-for-profit project

2004-09-24T03:07:25Z

Genyphur: start

'''Not-for-profit projects''' are projects which rely on donations to keep them running exmaples include [[the Red Cross]], [[Wikipedia]] and this website [[Consumerium wiki]]

Main Page

2004-09-24T03:05:05Z

Genyphur: fix Not-for-Profit project

__NOTOC__

{|cellpadding=2 cellspacing=3
|- valign="top"
|[[Consumerium:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome, newcomers]] to [[Consumerium]] [[Development Wiki]], where [[fair trade]], [[political consumerism]], and [[moral purchasing]] trends, all essential to our [[Consumerium:philosophy|philosophy]], are being pieced together into what we call '''moral purchasing power''':

[[Consumerium:Itself|Consumerium itself]] is a [[not-for-profit project]] to enable consumers to gain more insight into products and companies.

Start exploring Consumerium by seeing the '''[[Brief introduction]]''' article and another way in to this could be the '''[[Consumerium:FAQ]]'''. There are also other '''[[essential projects]]''', such as '''[[CorpKnowPedia]]''' we hope to introduce you to.

We are collaborating under the [[GFDL]] [[licences|license]], to design a [[healthy buying infrastructure]]. We are identifying [[hardware requirements]] for [[wiki|storage]], transport and display of varying levels of '''[[features|product information]] to [[consumer]]s''' and '''[[feedback]] to [[producer]]s''' at the [[point of purchase]].

There are currently {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} [http://develop.consumerium.org/wiki/index.php/Special:Allpages articles] of [[Development Wiki|Consumerium development]] related work

|width="35%" bgcolor="#f0fff0" style="border:1px solid #6e6e6e;padding:1em;padding-top:0.5em;"|

Managers wondering about the impact of this on their business should read <big>[[Consumerium:Executive summary|The Executive Summary page]]</big>.

To contribute corporation information proceed to [[CorpKnowPedia]].

Our [[Links]] offer a comprehensive list of moral purchasing related information resources

Proceed to the <big>[[Article hub]]</big> for more access points to this wiki'''

For editing practice, try playing in the [[Consumerium:Sandbox|Sandbox]].
|}

We invite you, if you wish to participate by editing proposals and discussions below. As customary in many [[wiki]]s '''any page can be edited by anyone, anytime''', or [[revert|restored to a previous state]] by anyone, which is the convention we assume will also apply in operation in this (combined) [[Research Wiki|Research]] and [[Development Wiki]]; Please see [[What Consumerium RD Wiki is not]], [[guidelines]] and [[rules]] for do's and dont's
<center>
===Selected articles===
'''[[Links|Looking for info on companies and products now?]]''' - '''[[Features|Planned Features to The Consumer]]''' - '''[[Consumerium Services]]''' '''[[Research Wiki|Planned Research Wiki]]''' - '''[[Publish Wiki|Planned Publish Wiki]]''' 

</center>

----
Use [[w:Wikipedia]] to link to http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia (and [[m:]] to meta). Avoid unnecessary replicating, we're in the [[GFDL]] part of the world after all :)
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Thanks to http://pingviini.net for hosting us. Consumerium [[Development Wiki]] is powered by [http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net MediaWiki], an open source [[wiki]] engine.

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Main Page

2004-09-24T03:04:23Z

Genyphur: linking Not for profit

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{|cellpadding=2 cellspacing=3
|- valign="top"
|[[Consumerium:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome, newcomers]] to [[Consumerium]] [[Development Wiki]], where [[fair trade]], [[political consumerism]], and [[moral purchasing]] trends, all essential to our [[Consumerium:philosophy|philosophy]], are being pieced together into what we call '''moral purchasing power''':

[[Consumerium:Itself|Consumerium itself]] is a [[not-for-profit]] project to enable consumers to gain more insight into products and companies.

Start exploring Consumerium by seeing the '''[[Brief introduction]]''' article and another way in to this could be the '''[[Consumerium:FAQ]]'''. There are also other '''[[essential projects]]''', such as '''[[CorpKnowPedia]]''' we hope to introduce you to.

We are collaborating under the [[GFDL]] [[licences|license]], to design a [[healthy buying infrastructure]]. We are identifying [[hardware requirements]] for [[wiki|storage]], transport and display of varying levels of '''[[features|product information]] to [[consumer]]s''' and '''[[feedback]] to [[producer]]s''' at the [[point of purchase]].

There are currently {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} [http://develop.consumerium.org/wiki/index.php/Special:Allpages articles] of [[Development Wiki|Consumerium development]] related work

|width="35%" bgcolor="#f0fff0" style="border:1px solid #6e6e6e;padding:1em;padding-top:0.5em;"|

Managers wondering about the impact of this on their business should read <big>[[Consumerium:Executive summary|The Executive Summary page]]</big>.

To contribute corporation information proceed to [[CorpKnowPedia]].

Our [[Links]] offer a comprehensive list of moral purchasing related information resources

Proceed to the <big>[[Article hub]]</big> for more access points to this wiki'''

For editing practice, try playing in the [[Consumerium:Sandbox|Sandbox]].
|}

We invite you, if you wish to participate by editing proposals and discussions below. As customary in many [[wiki]]s '''any page can be edited by anyone, anytime''', or [[revert|restored to a previous state]] by anyone, which is the convention we assume will also apply in operation in this (combined) [[Research Wiki|Research]] and [[Development Wiki]]; Please see [[What Consumerium RD Wiki is not]], [[guidelines]] and [[rules]] for do's and dont's
<center>
===Selected articles===
'''[[Links|Looking for info on companies and products now?]]''' - '''[[Features|Planned Features to The Consumer]]''' - '''[[Consumerium Services]]''' '''[[Research Wiki|Planned Research Wiki]]''' - '''[[Publish Wiki|Planned Publish Wiki]]''' 

</center>

----
Use [[w:Wikipedia]] to link to http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia (and [[m:]] to meta). Avoid unnecessary replicating, we're in the [[GFDL]] part of the world after all :)
----
Thanks to http://pingviini.net for hosting us. Consumerium [[Development Wiki]] is powered by [http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net MediaWiki], an open source [[wiki]] engine.

__NOEDITSECTION__

Abe Sokolov

2004-09-24T03:02:04Z

Genyphur:

'''Abe Sokolov''' is well known [[sysop]] on [[wikipedia]] who goes by the Username "172"

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:172 Abe Sokolov's Userpage (User:172) on wikipedia]

Abe Sokolov

2004-09-24T03:01:55Z

Genyphur:

'''Abe Sokolov''' is well known [[sysop]] on [[wikipedia]] who goes by the Username "172"

[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:172 Abe Sokolov's Userpage (User:172) on wikipedia]]

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:59:37Z

Genyphur:

'''English wikipedia user Plato''' was the founder of the [[wikipedia red faction]], he is well known for his oppositon to wikipedia's establishment. He goes to UNLV in Las Vegas, Nevada although not much is known about him thanks to his dymanic IP.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Plato His wikipedia userpage]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:131.216.163.241 Early Attempt to form the red faction (note: dated 10th of Dec. 2003)]

==Links Opposing Plato==

[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-June/013471.html Dan Mayer's responce to the red faction and Plato]

[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-June/013477.html Phil Sandifer's responce to the red faction and Plato]

==Links Favorable to Plato==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=3221611 Jimbo's personal attack of Plato]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=2911983#Online_polls_and_IP_ranges Illegal tracing of Plato's IP]

==Quotes by Plato==

"Interesting....sort of like our MTV Culture in America (as I jokingly put it), it seems even wiki (which i thought was above the Fray is not) gets afraid of "gadflys" such as yourself and I.--Plato 06:18, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bird]"

"I will get banned from wiki eventally because no one on this site (expect you and few others) like someone who speaks the truth. You where right no one on this site thinks highly of anyone who doesn't fit into there mold--Plato 03:07, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bird]"

"I feel wiki should lay out guidelines for what is and is not offenive, because syops are GODS on this site, they may do as they please. (note I will speak to Jimbo on this issue!)--Plato 05:50, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Plato&oldid=2801044]"

Talk:Driven off by trolls

2004-09-24T02:50:47Z

Genyphur:

[[Trolls]] thank other [[trolls]] for correcting the factual error, and also for being rude ("damn history"), as this validates troll tactics in general.

==Show Examples==

Please show examples from websites of users "driven off by trolls"--[[User:Genyphur|Genyphur]] 05:50, 24 Sep 2004 (EEST)

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:48:01Z

Genyphur:

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:47:45Z

Genyphur: fix

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:46:45Z

Genyphur: fix

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:46:36Z

Genyphur:

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:44:45Z

Genyphur: im trying to maintain NPOV

Consumerium:Rules

2004-09-24T02:42:56Z

Genyphur: linking bots

==Rules==

* Every body please behave.
* Absolutely no vandalism - it always wastes the time of [[some body]]
* No [[bots]] Please - they speak for [[no body]]
* Maintain a fair degree of [[NPOV]] - unattributed opinions to [[Talk:]] if you must
* Don't write that [[Company X]] or [[Person Y]] is evil. Do that in [http://recyclopedia.info Recyclopedia], [http://www.disinfopedia.org Disinfopedia], [[w:|Wikipedia]] or [http://wikinfo.org Wikinfo] so we don't have to worry about [[Disinformation]] or being [[w:Bias|Bias]]ed so much yet.
* Do not edit [[Consumerium:Conventions]], edit [[Consumerium_talk:Conventions]] instead. If the suggested convention makes sense (the [[Troll]]s and/or [[Special:Listusers|registered users]] agree that it's good or the supreme despot decides it's good) it will magically appear on the [[Consumerium:Conventions|Conventions]] page.
* No-one, exept the owner of the User-page may edit that page. Any such attempts will be considered [[vandalism]], reverted and history may be jettisoned if deemed necessary.
* If you people don't behave well, our sysop will pester you by force-feeding you Kit-Kat McFlurries until you explode.

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'''See also:'''
* [[Guidelines]]

Talk:English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:41:50Z

Genyphur:

[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-June/013469.html] contains some odd statements. Someone may want to take them up with von riche. Weird that he includes [[English Wikipedia User 24]] on the [[Wikipedia Red Faction]] honour roll but then also seemingly believes in the made up "[[spun threat]]"s the [[echo chamber]] invented. (not just for 24 but also [[English Wikipedia User EntmootsOfTrolls]] who did no more than ask if he should forward an article to groups that would have an honest interest in reviewing it - democratic Islamists who were being lumped into the same category as terrorists) by [[English Wikipedia User RK]]).
:E-mail him--[[User:Genyphur|Genyphur]] 05:41, 24 Sep 2004 (EEST)

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:41:14Z

Genyphur:

Wikipedia Red Faction

2004-09-24T02:38:40Z

Genyphur: see also

The '''Wikipedia Red Faction''' was disbanded by its creator, [[English Wikipedia User Plato]], and deleted, after [[Abe Sokolov]]'s attempt to destroy it via a vote for deletion had failed. Upon its disband, Plato was complimented by the fundamentalist Christian [[English Wikipedia User Jrosenszweig]] who was evidently pleased that Plato had voluntarily chosen to end the faction - while factions such as his own (whose membership remains unknown, un-self-identified, and possibly nonexistent) remained welcome to attempt to push their POV constantly.

[[Abe Sokolov]] listed it on votes for deletion, which is not supposed to apply to user pages, but no matter - consensus during the VfD vote was to leave the page alone. However this made it clear to Plato that [[sysop power structure]] was inalterably opposed to [[m:factionalism]] or [[representative democracy]] of any kind - despite the fact that a large majority of those who took interest in the page, including half a dozen or so sysops, were ''against'' deleting it. ''For more on this, see [[w:User:Richardchilton|an account by English Wikipedia User Richardchilton]], detailing [[EPOV]], [[Fox News point of view]], [[infrastructure owners trust]], [[systemic bias]], [[heroic trolling]] and [[technological escalation]] issues, among others.''

The faction's page was formerly at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Plato/red_faction] and listed various current and honorary members.

See also: [[English Wikipedia User Plato]]

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:37:43Z

Genyphur:

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:34:45Z

Genyphur:

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:33:31Z

Genyphur: more

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:27:50Z

Genyphur: adding more

'''English wikipedia user Plato''' was the founder of the [[wikipedia red faction]], he is well known for his oppositon to wikipedia's establishment.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Plato His wikipedia userpage]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:131.216.163.241 Early Attempt to form the red faction (note: dated 10th of Dec. 2003)]

User:Genyphur

2004-09-24T02:23:11Z

Genyphur: diff happy face

Hey you could call me Genyphur...LoL

I'm new here so please be kind! ^_^

English Wikipedia User Plato

2004-09-24T02:18:57Z

Genyphur: starting